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Difficult situation
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Nov 1, 2015 12:55:24   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
ronichas wrote:
i won't work for the charity or the event planner.
what i was looking for was some feedback on how others might handle this, do others think i should have not said anything, or should i have stood up for myself.


This sort of thing happens at times.

About the best way avoid it is to write up and sign a contract with event organizers/planners in advance. That contract needs to spell out your and their responsibilities - and should include a paragraph detailing your exclusivity to prevent competing commercial photographers from being able to offer their work. With it in writing, you may not be able to prevent them from showing up and taking some shots at the event, but you have done your best to be clear and up front with the organizer/planner and can ask them to require the other photographer stop selling their images.

The organizer/planner is nearly always in position to designate who can and can't offer images commercially. You are not. If the organizer/planner won't take care of this and enforce the agreed exclusivity, they'll be in breach of the contract you and they signed. Depending upon the size and type of event, this might even end up in court, if necessary.

If an organizer/planner won't sign an agreement such as this with you, walk away from the job.

There's less that you can do about private parties taking photos for their own purposes (assuming the event doesn't have any restrictions or prohibition on photography.... some do). One possibility is that, depending upon the type of event, as the official designated photographer you might have unusual access to be able to get shots that others can't.

Also, just do your best to make sure your images are better than any other photographer's. For example, at one recurring event there was a guy who showed up with a ton of gear and often followed me around, shooting nearby and taking probably 4X as many shots as me... he was an amateur with a kid who participated. Every time I shot at that venue and his kid was there, he was shooting like mad. As it turned out, his wife was one of my best customers, always bought a lot of shots from me, in spite of him taking way more. In fact, one time his camera was in for repairs (no surprise, considering how many shots he always took) and I even lent him one of my backups!

Besides private parties taking their own shots, you'll also sometimes encounter news photographers. They will only take a few shots and then run, though... and the organizers/planners need the free publicity. No big deal or direct competition for you.

Another type of commercial photographer might be one hired specifically by one of the participants at the event. That happens too. And since the participants at many events are "customers" of the organizers/planners, this often needs to be accommodated. Usually these photographers do the courtesy of introducing themselves and letting you know what they're doing (and what they're NOT doing). Again, in more than one case I've ended up selling lots of photos to the participant, too. After all, they must have a lot of interest in good photos, if they've gone to the trouble of hiring their own photographer. So while at first I'm tempted not to shoot those participants at all, it's turned out some of them have become top customers!

Conversely, there's a venue I'd love to shoot at, but that's widely known for their cavalier and even nasty attitude toward photographers. So I'll never go there to shoot for them. I have gone there and shot "for fun" and occasionally when hired by specific participants at their events. But I won't work for the organizer... They have a very bad rep with area photographers (but, unfortunately, are such a great venue they keep finding unaware "suckers" to come shoot anyway).

What was done to you was both rude and very poor business practice. These sorts of things end up haunting recurring events, organizers and planners. Make a mental note of it and never work with that organizer/planner again... Or if you do, don't do so without a written and signed agreement. I generally wouldn't bother sending letters or filing complaints now. Unless there is something to be gained, simply walk away.

Thankfully most folks are not so inconsiderate and a lot that I've worked with for many years I don't need more than a verbal agreement now. They go out of their way to help promote me and my images, as well as protect my exclusivity.

However, there also are "bad photographers". Some organizers/planners I work with make a point of avoiding them. In a couple cases, the photogs have a reputation for complaining and being difficult to work with. It's sort of a fine line to walk, between insisting on fairness, honesty and clarity dealing with each other... Without being overly insistent, difficult and demanding and, as a result, getting a bad rep.

By the way, if you and/or the other photographer are selling your images to participants or making some other sort of income from your work, then you're both commercial photographers... You are not "volunteers".

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Nov 1, 2015 13:33:38   #
photoman022 Loc: Manchester CT USA
 
I had this happen to me once. I was asked to be the designated photographer for a fashion event; it turned out that I was one designated photographer among many designated photographers.

I was the only one who knew what I was doing and took a few of the photographers under my wing; I loaned them my ETTL flashes and gave them a basic intro into how to use them. The "reserved" (for designated photographer) section of the fashion runway was crammed packed with all sorts of people.

They were also supposed to feed me -- and they didn't. I chalked it up to experience and tried to enjoy myself (on an empty stomach).

Your situation is very different and I would never work with the people who contacted you.

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Nov 1, 2015 13:41:18   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
Ronichas,

Well, it looks like I'm the only (or one of the few) hawk(s) here. I will not criticize those who tell you to move; they are most certainly wiser than I am.

It's just that it hurts to see a charity get away with something like this when there are so many really deserving charities that will eventually suffer when this one succeeds by nefarious practices. Once again I stress that, if this is a local chapter, the national or corporate office deserves to know of their practices; I strongly urge you to take that one step. Too many local chapters of otherwise wonderful charities are burdened by people who work for these chapters just to get their names on the front page of the local paper or on the evening news. I sincerely hope that this was not a charity claiming to help veterans, the sick, homeless or other indigents. We don't need that in our society.

Any way, lister to those wiser than me; take the high road and walk away. I will be sad, but I do understand. You, at least, can hold your head up with pride in the fact that you tried to help.

As for those who talk about contracts, let me assure you that those of us who shoot for charities seldom concern themselves with such matters; we may be fools or bad business people, but we just want to help. Good luck and God bless you for your effort.

Mogul

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Nov 1, 2015 14:45:47   #
RWCRNC Loc: Pennsylvania
 
Sorry this happened to you. Director and other photographer were unprofessional. Nothing you can do now. Live and learn as they say. Grist for the mill.

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Nov 1, 2015 15:09:30   #
canon Lee
 
ronichas wrote:
hi, would love some thoughts on a situation i found myself in.
i was asked to volunteer my time to photograph a fund raising event. this has always been done by another photographer in the past, who donates time and money to this charity. he was a guest at the event and clearly knew that someone else (me) would be shooting the event.

he came with his camera, took many photos. while i was processing, posting & tagging on facebook, i see a message on the charity's facebook page, thanking the other photographer and posting a link to view/purchase his photos. i was very disturbed by this.

i did send an email to the director & event planner (who requested i shoot the event), expressing my concern over posting a thank you & link to his site, when he was not the designated photographer. well, i got very nasty emails from both of them, saying i embarassed them and myself, being negative, my email disturbing etc, etc.

i feel i was asked to be the designated photographer, he was a guest. they were unethical in posting a thankyou to him for his photos with a link to his site to view/purchase, when he was not the designated photographer. they did post a link with my info late last night, 9 hours after posting his link.

your thoughts? would love to have some input on this, both positive and negative.
thanks!!
hi, would love some thoughts on a situation i foun... (show quote)


Hi. I have shot paid and not paid events and being the designated photographer is just a title that I have never thought it meant that I was the only photographer. Seems like you are in the middle of some politics at the hands of this charity. However if any other photographer gets in my way I would certainly mention that I was being paid to shoot the event and was the designated photographer. I have had similar situations happen to me and with a gentle whisper to the offender was enough to give me my space. My advice would be to not say a word. Since you have donated your time and are not getting paid, I would not be overly concerned about getting credits. Seems to me that its more about your feelings getting hurt that you were not mentioned first by the charity. I purposely do not bring my camera to any event unless I am asked. Yes it was rude of him to step on your toes, but I am sure lots of iPhone were snapping away too. I hope you are not offended that I feel recognition in this case was no big deal.

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Nov 1, 2015 15:16:17   #
canon Lee
 
Papa Joe wrote:
My thoughts? Naturally, we all like to get credit for our work, but really, since it was for a good cause you believed in, did you do it more for the credit or for the cause? I would chalk it up to experience and proudly go on from there, knowing I did something nice of my own free will that helped out. Those who know you, and we Hoggers, appreciate what you've done to help.


:thumbup:

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Nov 1, 2015 15:25:58   #
stan0301 Loc: Colorado
 
To the extent they pay you they will respect you
Stan

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Nov 1, 2015 15:54:46   #
James R. Kyle Loc: Saint Louis, Missouri (A Suburb of Ferguson)
 
stan0301 wrote:
To the extent they pay you they will respect you
Stan

+++++++++++++

YES!!!!

And Too....

These "directors" and "administrators" have it in their heads that "All You Do Is Press The Button" idea that is all you must do to "take" pictures.....

"A Photographer MAKES Photographs. Not merely Take Pictures" = A.A. Quote.

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Nov 1, 2015 16:23:14   #
jcboy3
 
I'm going to side with the charity on this one, and suggest you apologize to them for the whole sordid mixup.

If you are going to volunteer, then do so. Take the pictures, send them in, and be satisfied with doing a good deed for a charity.

I don't get why you are so concerned with the "designated photographer" concept. Did they say you were? Does that mean no one else's pictures can be shown? You are upset that the other photographer is selling the pictures. Apparently he did not "donate" his time to the event.

If you take time to process pictures, you can expect that other's pictures will be up on social media before you get yours done. These days, the pictures could be showing up before the event is over. Either your processed pictures are so much better, or you need to speed it up.

At any rate, you may have ruined your chances to shoot this event in the future; but it sounds like you don't care. Not clear why you "volunteered" in the first place. Money? Advertising? Sounds like they put up a link to your pictures even after you took time getting them out while complaining about another photographer. And one they have a long standing relationship with. Not a good showing, as far as I see.

Here's the deal. The way you left it, you left the impression that you are "difficult" to work with. They might not want you back. They might not give you a good review to other clients.

Don't mix personal affront with business; it is not likely to do any good and more likely to do harm.

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Nov 1, 2015 17:00:08   #
Basil Loc: New Mexico
 
.

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Nov 1, 2015 18:08:02   #
mr. u. n. owen
 
Never work for free. Your time and talent should have at least be worth a thank you. Lesson learned.

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Nov 1, 2015 18:39:32   #
Bill Emmett Loc: Bow, New Hampshire
 
I found myself in a very similar situation a few years ago. I was actually shooting trade shows, at the Convention Center. I was contacted by the Convention Center to do the Work Boat Show. I was to shoot all the booths with the companies attendants standing by the booths. Another photographer, who shot the previous year, gained entrance, and began shooting. He did about the same thing the charity did to you. He severely under cut my price. I was not to be in competition with anyone, and I did have a contract with the "Work Boat Show" but it did not mention "exclusive" in the wording. So, when dealing with a charity, write a exclusive contract with the charity, and have them pay $1.00 for your services, and make your own price per print for copy's of your prints. Business is Business.

B

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Nov 1, 2015 20:01:56   #
jcboy3
 
Bill Emmett wrote:
I found myself in a very similar situation a few years ago. I was actually shooting trade shows, at the Convention Center. I was contacted by the Convention Center to do the Work Boat Show. I was to shoot all the booths with the companies attendants standing by the booths. Another photographer, who shot the previous year, gained entrance, and began shooting. He did about the same thing the charity did to you. He severely under cut my price. I was not to be in competition with anyone, and I did have a contract with the "Work Boat Show" but it did not mention "exclusive" in the wording. So, when dealing with a charity, write a exclusive contract with the charity, and have them pay $1.00 for your services, and make your own price per print for copy's of your prints. Business is Business.

B
I found myself in a very similar situation a few y... (show quote)


This is advice for how to "volunteer" for a charity?

I really wonder if most of the responders here actually read the OP. Most of the responses, especially the really long winded tirades, completely miss the point.

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Nov 1, 2015 20:10:26   #
ronichas Loc: Long Island
 
jcboy3 wrote:
This is advice for how to "volunteer" for a charity?

I really wonder if most of the responders here actually read the OP. Most of the responses, especially the really long winded tirades, completely miss the point.


i did think some of the responders missed the point, and offered poor suggestions. i was happy to volunteer my time. i will continue to volunteer for different charities..certainly not that one. i was wanting to hear, if others thought i handled it well.
i am happy with the way i handled it, i stood up for myself. explaining i was the designated photographer, he was not...he also was in the wrong. he knew another photographer would be there, so why couldn't he just be a guest? the whole thing was not handled well by these non professionals. and to blame me for being difficult and negative just made the situation worse.

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Nov 1, 2015 20:16:32   #
jcboy3
 
ronichas wrote:
i did think some of the responders missed the point, and offered poor suggestions. i was happy to volunteer my time. i will continue to volunteer for different charities..certainly not that one. i was wanting to hear, if others thought i handled it well.
i am happy with the way i handled it, i stood up for myself. explaining i was the designated photographer, he was not...he also was in the wrong. he knew another photographer would be there, so why couldn't he just be a guest? the whole thing was not handled well by these non professionals. and to blame me for being difficult and negative just made the situation worse.
i did think some of the responders missed the poin... (show quote)


I still don't get what you are expecting from "volunteering" and being the "designated photographer". Why does it matter whether anyone else is taking pictures? Why does it matter if they are selling their pictures. Is that what you were doing?

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