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Quick question on film
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Feb 22, 2015 10:25:16   #
IShootEverything Loc: TN
 
With film, when you get high ISO film does that mean you will get a lot of noise? Or unlike digital is it better to get high ISO film?
Thanks.

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Feb 22, 2015 10:36:43   #
Leitz Loc: Solms
 
Ishootcanon wrote:
With film, when you get high ISO film does that mean you will get a lot of noise? Or unlike digital is it better to get high ISO film?
Thanks.


Film is actually pretty quiet. You'll get more grain with higher ISO, though.

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Feb 22, 2015 10:38:07   #
IShootEverything Loc: TN
 
Leitz wrote:
Film is actually pretty quiet. You'll get more grain with higher ISO, though.


Great! That is what I was looking for! Thank you! :D

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Feb 22, 2015 10:39:55   #
Leitz Loc: Solms
 
Ishootcanon wrote:
Great! That is what I was looking for! Thank you! :D


:thumbup:

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Feb 22, 2015 10:42:07   #
BebuLamar
 
In my opinion I don't use High ISO film. They are more expensive and get much more grainy than equivalent digital. I always use ISO 100 or 160. Using the high speed isn't all that high compared to what DSLR can do. So if I shoot film I would use slow speed film and take it from there.

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Feb 22, 2015 10:52:54   #
Meives Loc: FORT LAUDERDALE
 
Ishootcanon wrote:
With film, when you get high ISO film does that mean you will get a lot of noise? Or unlike digital is it better to get high ISO film?
Thanks.


Isn't fillm ASA speed. It does add noise if you use the fastest film. Like ASA 800 or 1600. David

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Feb 22, 2015 11:11:33   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Love the 'film is pretty quiet'...

Film does not have an equivalent for digital noise for starter. Grain is nothing more than molecules stuck together that prevent light from being used. The size depend on the sensitivity (ISO). The higher the ISO the larger the 'grain'.

In digital the size of the noise is always the same but the intensity of the noise varies. Noise is ugly when grain can be used successfully for artistic purposes IF you plan for it.

ISA ~ ISO refer to the organisms creating standards. ASA is long gone (a casualty of WWII as the organization siege was in Poland). While still used in Photography the numbers (ISO/ASA) are basically the same.

The 'digital camera ISO' is not a standard as far as I know but an approximation.

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Feb 22, 2015 12:08:49   #
Don Fischer Loc: Antelope, Ore
 
I feel very fortunate in that I haven't a clue what noise look's like! In film I liked ISO 50, Ilford Pan x, 100 speed or 125 speed B&W. Seldom used anything much faster but know and then Delta 400. But I don't think film and digital can really be compared to one another. Same ISO on both and get only a print to tell the difference on the same shot, I couldn't tell which was which! ASA is from the film days but it was changed years ago to ISO. Means about the same in digital or film, indication of how much light the film/sensor need's to produce a decent photo.

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Feb 23, 2015 07:54:41   #
ChrisCat Loc: Lawn Guyland, New Yawk
 
Ishootcanon wrote:
With film, when you get high ISO film does that mean you will get a lot of noise? Or unlike digital is it better to get high ISO film?
Thanks.


I get my 35mm film developed and scanned commercially, and have found that the higher the ISO, the more noise you will get in the scans. Easily fixed in a denoising program, but not ideal for sharpness. So I try to stick to ISO 50 and 100, even 200 is ok.

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Feb 23, 2015 10:27:54   #
Retina Loc: Near Charleston,SC
 
Some of the most impressive prints I ever saw were B/W 8x10 prints shot with Tri-X at ASA 3200. The grain (noise) was there but the use of light and composition far more than made up for it to the point wher the grain "disappeared". These shots were impossible to do at ASA 800 or less. My point is noise can take a back seat to being able to get the picture.

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Feb 23, 2015 14:47:59   #
wj cody Loc: springfield illinois
 
Ishootcanon wrote:
With film, when you get high ISO film does that mean you will get a lot of noise? Or unlike digital is it better to get high ISO film?
Thanks.


let's begin at the beginning. there is no such thing as "noise" in film. there is however, grain, which is an entirely different animal. higher asa films - 400-800-1600 do not have a "grain" floor, as does digital with its attendant "noise".

depending on the developer formula used, time, temperature and selection of print paper, there can be as little grain structure in an 8x10 print with tri-x as there is with a panchromatic film (asa 25).

also, it should be noted the minolta 7s rangefinder camera with its 45mm f2.8 lens and 9 bladed shutter would produce an 11x14 print from tri-x (asa 400) film comparable with a panchromatic (asa 25) film, commercially developed and printed.

this was a cause of many questions going to minolta as to why this was the case. the engineers, at minolta, that i spoke with, could not figure it out, either. they thought the ninth blade in the aperture cluster might have had something to do with it. when asked why nine instead of eight blades, they said, just because it seemed right. i still have and use my minolta 7s for pro work.

film, unlike digital, is an "open-ended" medium.

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Feb 23, 2015 15:07:41   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
Yes, as noted, high ISO films (or film pushed to high ISO) see increased graininess. Depends on the film, what causes this. With any silver-based film, it's actually larger silver halide crystals that cause the grain to be more obvious. It can be minimized with some development processes. Certain chemistries and slower/longer development will generally reduce the graininess, but can only help so much.

Depending upon the film, other factors that can occur are increased contrast and reduced dynamic range. Particularly with slide (transparency) films, ISO 400 and higher tend to increase in contrast, while more easily losing detail (blowing out) highlights or failing to record detail in shadows.

With slide film I used ISO 50, 100 and 200. When conditions dictated that I needed to shoot ISO 400 or 800, I'd usually switch to color neg film because it had more latitude.

B&W neg film (silver-based) would work pretty well up to ISO 1600, and even 3200 with some care. The grain would show up, but wasn't necessarily a problem. My favorite B&W films for max, fine detail were ISO 25 and 32 when I was first shooting, but later I really liked Fuji ISO 100 Neopan ACROS for it's rich blacks and fine detail.

As stated, high ISO "noise" in digital is different. In older DSLRs it seemed more organized and uniform, which made it more "obnoxious" (best way I can think of to describe it). More recent DSLRs can shoot usable images at ISOs unheard of with film and many render noise in a more random pattern that's more acceptable even when it does occur. And with DSLRs at very high ISOs, converting from color to B&W can often emulate silver halide B&W negs pretty well. Heck, there are even "grain" filters in post-processing softwares now to more closely emulate the appearance of film!

A key advantage of digital (and disadvantage of film) is the ability to change ISO on the fly, from shot to shot even if you wish. With film, once you loaded up a pack or roll of film, that was the ISO you were stuck with using until you finished shooting all the frames. Even if willing to "push" or "pull" the film to a higher or lower ISO during development, you had to treat the whole roll the same way (one advantage of large format sheet film, where each shot was taken and could be processed individually).

FYI: back in the days of film there were different speed ratings than we use today. The two most common were DIN ("European" ) and ASA ("American" ). Those were eventually replaced by one standard we call ISO ("International" ), but that's actually the same as ASA.

So, while we are still very grudgingly in the log, drawn out process of converting to metric standards with everything else here in the U.S., at least we got a smidgen of revenge by foisting our film (and now digital) sensitivity rating methodology on the whole rest of the world! :roll: Even if we did have to compromise by calling it something else.

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Feb 23, 2015 15:47:07   #
Don Fischer Loc: Antelope, Ore
 
Two really good post's!

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Feb 23, 2015 17:26:50   #
ecar Loc: Oregon, USA
 
Ishootcanon wrote:
With film, when you get high ISO film does that mean you will get a lot of noise? Or unlike digital is it better to get high ISO film?
Thanks.


Film has "Speed"
Digital has "ISO"

they are not the same and do different things.

The lower the number "Speed" the more light (ambient) in the picture (outside photo's on sunny day)

the higher the number "Speed" the less light (ambient) will be in the picture, usually indoors.

"Speed" is a chemical process
Digital is a pixel phenominum

Speed deals with light
Digital deals with picture quality

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Feb 23, 2015 17:53:37   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
Ishootcanon wrote:
With film, when you get high ISO film does that mean you will get a lot of noise? Or unlike digital is it better to get high ISO film?
Thanks.


With film there are so many more variables which can lead to more or less "Grain" as opposed to digital noise. Digital camera differ with regard to noise at various ISO settings. In digital thats about it. With film not only does the film matter but the developer matters and the kind of paper as well as the chemicals used to develop the paper all have more or less to do with grain. There are 3 chemicals used for processing all matter. Not only does the chemicals that develop the film and the paper effect grain but time in the soup also have different effects. In film the camera and the lens controls sharpness and the film and chemistry control grain or lack thereof.

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