Funny that you folks only think of post processing and not that you can learn to do things right in the first place, go ahead, recommend programs that require almost a college course to learn stuff you do not need.

When you folks understand that PS is a designer program? If you want the photo stuff either get light room (organization) or photo element (photograph editing). Both are subset of PS and do the job right AND you do not need to get a second master in design to use them.

Most of you would not be able to be behind a lens and take any decent pictures a few years ago because you could not afford the cost of it. The rule at the time was 'get it right or go away'. Were you half way serious you would understand that this rule still applies if you really want to learn.

Learn your camera strength and weaknesses, learn the basic of photography, learn the basics of composition, learn the basics of lighting and most of all learn that a good photograph does not need help. The product needs to stand as is, w/o post processing.

So post-processing as a remedy to all the errors made because many are too lazy to learn right in the first place? It is a freaking joke. Post processing should be reserved to the few who have a vision that needs an extra help because the media cannot alone cannot do it. A good example was on display a few days ago, the forum on welding photography. THAT was a good job.

If you REALLY want to learn stop using crutches or walking aids. Stand on your own and start walking.

For those who think they know? stop giving goofy help and start learning yourself, you seriously need it. You have no eyes, no vision, nothing but you are extremely good at giving advice and discouraging those that want to learn to do it right.

Am I abrasive here? YES.
Condescending? No. making a point that learning right is the only way to progress and become excellent photographers. I see many who have potential if only they were given the right guidance. Post processing and the like ain't it.

Practice, practice and practice again. That is the key. (AND you can afford it now a day.)

When I see folks here who say: "Oh! I did not know, let me go out, I'll try that." It makes me happy. They will learn EVEN more as they will make mistakes and learn to correct them on their own, during their experimentation. THOSE FOLKS WILL WALK TALL AMONG US. They will be able to scream gleefully 'See mom? no hands!' while we still have your training wheels.

Why the WE instead of YOU? because this technology (digital) is new and I am still learning it. I have the rest as I learned a long to 'get it right' but pulling every last bit of information out of my camera? that is another story.

Wow! It's my lucky day. I have finally found a photographer that gets it right in his camera every time the shutter clicks! It must be wonderful for you to click and send you photos to the lab and ALWAYS have them come back PERFECT! I would wager to say that all of us here including me will never reach your atmospheric level.I do agree in part with what you are saying. We all should strive to get it right in the camera. Post Processing was done even in the old chemical darkroom days. I can only imagine what people were saying then. Hmm, something like you have to have a chemistry degree to develop your own photos! Photoshop is the gold standard today and it doesn't take a master's degree to understand it. It does however take practice and a desire to learn and explore. There are a lot of people here that are new to photography and are looking for suggestions and options. Unlike you, us mere mortals will be well served by learning how to post process our photos. Enter the Digital World and Unleash your creativity!!!

Wow! It's my lucky day. I have finally found a photographer that gets it right in his camera every time the shutter clicks! It must be wonderful for you to click and send you photos to the lab and ALWAYS have them come back PERFECT! I would wager to say that all of us here including me will never reach your atmospheric level.I do agree in part with what you are saying. We all should strive to get it right in the camera. Post Processing was done even in the old chemical darkroom days. I can only imagine what people were saying then. Hmm, something like you have to have a chemistry degree to develop your own photos! Photoshop is the gold standard today and it doesn't take a master's degree to understand it. It does however take practice and a desire to learn and explore. There are a lot of people here that are new to photography and are looking for suggestions and options. Unlike you, us mere mortals will be well served by learning how to post process our photos. Enter the Digital World and Unleash your creativity!!!

Only one answer: take a white paper and draw, there you will enjoy total freedom.
http://www.dpreview.com/
I find rather strange this refusal to realize that a good picture is needed to 'enjoy post creativity' as you say so well. Trouble is, you need to learn to take that picture in the first place.

You did not get to make a living as I did by messing around with hundred of pictures when you had negative and prints cost to deal with. So yes, on that aspect I have been well trained by a 'master in portraiture' who was a maniac over details with good reasons. When we parted, in good terms, his instructions were etched in my mind permanently. "if you know something is not right, don't waste your time".

His teaching was gold. Perfect pictures from me? I don't like them myself, I am never satisfied, so why should you? That 'freaking bastard' - my teacher- did not even like his own creations, after the fact. He always found something that he said "was not right" and could rant over it for days, seeing only a minor detail that no one had seen but him, just like a writer who has never published anything because he or she is not happy with a manuscript that would please even the best author.

With this new technology a lot has changed but one hasn't: his teaching: "If something ain't right, don't waste your time". I am considering myself a 'hobbyist' when it comes to digital because, as I stated, I have a lot to learn to draw the last pixel out of my twice cursed Nikon W/O POST PROCESSING.

So, forgive me to be a 'perfectionist' but in photography, if you really want to progress, this is what you need to thrive for. There is no worse critic than one self.

For info, if some photographer did all (A.Adams by example) other did not want to have anything to do with a darkroom (C. Bresson). These two types of folks where perfectionist to a degree not seen since. Adams was waiting for weeks at the same spot for the exact moment by example. Bresson with his incredible vision of the world and his ability to tell a story with a single picture and no post processing. Those guys are the pioneers, the true master and they all were perfectionist to the point of rendering their entourage mad.

Here? I drive most folks mad by asking to thrive for perfection when shooting, for nothing else. If you have s*** in your hand, post processing will do nothing but roll the s*** into a nicely framed piece of s***.

Better go back to a white page and have fun as mentioned above.

Funny that you folks only think of post processing and not that you can learn to do things right in the first place, go ahead, recommend programs that require almost a college course to learn stuff you do not need.

When you folks understand that PS is a designer program? If you want the photo stuff either get light room (organization) or photo element (photograph editing). Both are subset of PS and do the job right AND you do not need to get a second master in design to use them.

Most of you would not be able to be behind a lens and take any decent pictures a few years ago because you could not afford the cost of it. The rule at the time was 'get it right or go away'. Were you half way serious you would understand that this rule still applies if you really want to learn.

Learn your camera strength and weaknesses, learn the basic of photography, learn the basics of composition, learn the basics of lighting and most of all learn that a good photograph does not need help. The product needs to stand as is, w/o post processing.

So post-processing as a remedy to all the errors made because many are too lazy to learn right in the first place? It is a freaking joke. Post processing should be reserved to the few who have a vision that needs an extra help because the media cannot alone cannot do it. A good example was on display a few days ago, the forum on welding photography. THAT was a good job.

If you REALLY want to learn stop using crutches or walking aids. Stand on your own and start walking.

For those who think they know? stop giving goofy help and start learning yourself, you seriously need it. You have no eyes, no vision, nothing but you are extremely good at giving advice and discouraging those that want to learn to do it right.

Am I abrasive here? YES.
Condescending? No. making a point that learning right is the only way to progress and become excellent photographers. I see many who have potential if only they were given the right guidance. Post processing and the like ain't it.

Practice, practice and practice again. That is the key. (AND you can afford it now a day.)

When I see folks here who say: "Oh! I did not know, let me go out, I'll try that." It makes me happy. They will learn EVEN more as they will make mistakes and learn to correct them on their own, during their experimentation. THOSE FOLKS WILL WALK TALL AMONG US. They will be able to scream gleefully 'See mom? no hands!' while we still have your training wheels.

Why the WE instead of YOU? because this technology (digital) is new and I am still learning it. I have the rest as I learned a long to 'get it right' but pulling every last bit of information out of my camera? that is another story.