Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Lens Adapters vs Extension Tubes
Page 1 of 2 next>
Jun 27, 2022 07:09:30   #
JW from PA
 
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes:
If an extension tube is used to aloud a lenses to focus closer for macro photography, does an adapter have the same effect on the lenses. Example #1: If I were to buy a Sony Full Frame Camera (A7RIII) and use all my Canon EF lenses instead of buying all new Sony lenses, what effect would that have on light entering the camera? F stops, SS, and ISO. Example #2: If I bought a Canon R6 or R5 and used an adapter for my EF lenses, what effect would that have on the light entering the camera? F stops, SS and ISO.

I hope I explained my question so its understandable, if not I am sorry.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Joe W.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 07:23:48   #
BebuLamar
 
JW from PA wrote:
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes:
If an extension tube is used to aloud a lenses to focus closer for macro photography, does an adapter have the same effect on the lenses. Example #1: If I were to buy a Sony Full Frame Camera (A7RIII) and use all my Canon EF lenses instead of buying all new Sony lenses, what effect would that have on light entering the camera? F stops, SS, and ISO. Example #2: If I bought a Canon R6 or R5 and used an adapter for my EF lenses, what effect would that have on the light entering the camera? F stops, SS and ISO.

I hope I explained my question so its understandable, if not I am sorry.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Joe W.
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes: ... (show quote)


Since there is enough room for the adapter, adapters for Canon EF lenes to Sony A7 would do nothing to the focal length, f stop or focusing range.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 07:30:41   #
Manglesphoto Loc: 70 miles south of St.Louis
 
JW from PA wrote:
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes:
If an extension tube is used to aloud a lenses to focus closer for macro photography, does an adapter have the same effect on the lenses. Example #1: If I were to buy a Sony Full Frame Camera (A7RIII) and use all my Canon EF lenses instead of buying all new Sony lenses, what effect would that have on light entering the camera? F stops, SS, and ISO. Example #2: If I bought a Canon R6 or R5 and used an adapter for my EF lenses, what effect would that have on the light entering the camera? F stops, SS and ISO.

I hope I explained my question so its understandable, if not I am sorry.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Joe W.
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes: ... (show quote)


Not enough for you to notice it!!!since the lens adaptor is so thin.

Reply
 
 
Jun 27, 2022 08:35:14   #
LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY
 
Adapters, such as Canon's EF/RF adapter, simply provide the spacing that EF lenses need to work properly on Canon's R Series mirrorless bodies. They have absolutely no effect on how the lens performs. It is a one-way street with EF/RF lenses. EF lenses will work perfectly on a R Series body, but, RF lenses cannot be adapted to work perfectly on DSLR bodies. I assume they could be adapted to provide some very limited use, but, then the question becomes: Why bother?

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 08:52:00   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
A deeper explanation. Adapters are generally used when adapting lenses for a camera with a greater lens flange depth to a camera with a lesser lens flange depth so that the sensor will be the correct depth from the lens mount. So if you’re adapting Canon EF lenses to a Sony the Sony flange depth + the adapter depth = the Canon DSLR flange depth. So an adapter will have two different mounts. That adapter would have a rear mount that looks like the back of a Sony lens and a front that looks like the mount on a Canon DSLR. An extension tube will have both mounts matching one mount type. If you look at the lens when it focuses, generally the closer you focus the farther the front element moves from the sensor. The extension moves that front element much farther from the sensor and allows an extremely close focusing distance and it also limits the focal range so you’re no longer able to focus at infinity or even objects that are moderately far away.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 09:23:31   #
zug55 Loc: Naivasha, Kenya, and Austin, Texas
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
A deeper explanation. Adapters are generally used when adapting lenses for a camera with a greater lens flange depth to a camera with a lesser lens flange depth so that the sensor will be the correct depth from the lens mount. So if you’re adapting Canon EF lenses to a Sony the Sony flange depth + the adapter depth = the Canon DSLR flange depth. So an adapter will have two different mounts. That adapter would have a rear mount that looks like the back of a Sony lens and a front that looks like the mount on a Canon DSLR. An extension tube will have both mounts matching one mount type. If you look at the lens when it focuses, generally the closer you focus the farther the front element moves from the sensor. The extension moves that front element much farther from the sensor and allows an extremely close focusing distance and it also limits the focal range so you’re no longer able to focus at infinity or even objects that are moderately far away.
A deeper explanation. Adapters are generally used ... (show quote)


Correct. Technically, the flange focal distance is the distance between the lens mount and the sensor. In all DSLR cameras, the distance is more than 40mm to allow enough space for the mirror box with prism. Due to the absence of a mirror box, the flange focal distance in mirrorless cameras is in the 16-18mm range, which allows for very different lens designs.

Specifically, Canon EF system cameras have a flange focal distance of 44mm while the Sony FE system has a distance of 18mm. The adapter simply bridges the difference--26mm in this case. Adapters do not affect the optical performance of a lens in perceptible ways. The autofocus may not work as well though.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 09:28:57   #
zug55 Loc: Naivasha, Kenya, and Austin, Texas
 
[quote=zug55]

Reply
 
 
Jun 27, 2022 09:44:58   #
r1ch Loc: Colorado
 
JW from PA wrote:
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes:
If an extension tube is used to aloud a lenses to focus closer for macro photography, does an adapter have the same effect on the lenses. Example #1: If I were to buy a Sony Full Frame Camera (A7RIII) and use all my Canon EF lenses instead of buying all new Sony lenses, what effect would that have on light entering the camera? F stops, SS, and ISO. Example #2: If I bought a Canon R6 or R5 and used an adapter for my EF lenses, what effect would that have on the light entering the camera? F stops, SS and ISO.
I hope I explained my question so its understandable, if not I am sorry.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Joe W.
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes: ... (show quote)

If you bought an R5, that adapter would do nothing other than allow the lens to be put on the camera. Nothing changes.

With that said there are different adapters that allow you to do some good things. This Variable Neutral density filter fits into the Mieke adapter or the Canon drop in adapter.
https://meikeglobal.com/products/meike-mk-eftr-c-auto-focus-lens-adapter-ef-ef-s-lens-to-eos-r-camers
You can even do a speed booster adapter on the Canon adapter.

The standard 99 dollar Canon adapter changes nothing, but there are other options.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 11:21:25   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
JW from PA wrote:
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes:
If an extension tube is used to aloud a lenses to focus closer for macro photography, does an adapter have the same effect on the lenses. Example #1: If I were to buy a Sony Full Frame Camera (A7RIII) and use all my Canon EF lenses instead of buying all new Sony lenses, what effect would that have on light entering the camera? F stops, SS, and ISO. Example #2: If I bought a Canon R6 or R5 and used an adapter for my EF lenses, what effect would that have on the light entering the camera? F stops, SS and ISO.

I hope I explained my question so its understandable, if not I am sorry.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Joe W.
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes: ... (show quote)


Everyone has covered the differences already. The idea to emphasize is the 'flange distance', the distance any given lens / mount system is designed to allow for infinity focus of the lens. The mount adapters add the necessary space to use different lens types onto different camera mounts to create / mimic the distance (in millimeters) of the native camera mount.

The extension tubes exist to disrupt / change this flange distance, pushing the lens further away from the sensor / film, further than the native mount flange distance. This added distance changes the lens characteristics in that it can now focus closer to a given subject (lowering / shortening the minimum focus distance), but the lens can no longer focus on anything distant, certainly not infinity, and usually not on anything even closer than infinity.

Take the Canon EF mount vs their legacy FD mount and their new RF mount. Respectively, the flange distances are:

EF - 44mm
FD - 42mm
RF - 20mm

We see why FD lenses never worked on EF bodies. There were other problems, but just the 2mm longer difference would make any FD to EF 'adapter' perform like an extension tube so the FD lenses could not retain their infinity focus abilities. Both legacy mounts work on the shorter RF mount. The mirrorless mount at 20mm occurs because no extra room is needed inside the camera to allow for a flapping mirror between the sensor and lens.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 12:08:25   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
A deeper explanation. Adapters are generally used when adapting lenses for a camera with a greater lens flange depth to a camera with a lesser lens flange depth so that the sensor will be the correct depth from the lens mount. So if you’re adapting Canon EF lenses to a Sony the Sony flange depth + the adapter depth = the Canon DSLR flange depth. So an adapter will have two different mounts. That adapter would have a rear mount that looks like the back of a Sony lens and a front that looks like the mount on a Canon DSLR. An extension tube will have both mounts matching one mount type. If you look at the lens when it focuses, generally the closer you focus the farther the front element moves from the sensor. The extension moves that front element much farther from the sensor and allows an extremely close focusing distance and it also limits the focal range so you’re no longer able to focus at infinity or even objects that are moderately far away.
A deeper explanation. Adapters are generally used ... (show quote)



In other words, YES and NO. For instance, take the Canon EF to R adapter. If you could mount the lens directly to the camera, it would focus too far away since it is designed for the flange to sensor distance of the EF body. (The flange on an R body is closer to the sensor than on an EF body.) The adapter brings it focusing "closer", which in this case means closer than too far away which is back to normal.

Does that help???

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 12:28:41   #
mr1492 Loc: Newport News, VA
 
If you are looking to upgrade your camera body but want to keep your old Canon lenses, why not consider one of the new Canon bodies? They have excellent features and have great technical specifications. That might be a better solution.

If you sell your old Canon lenses, it would enable you to put together a reasonable set of Sony lenses. Tamron and Sigma produce some excellent lenses at resonable prices for Sony bodies. That might be your best path.

Phil

Reply
 
 
Jun 27, 2022 13:30:17   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
JW from PA wrote:
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes:
If an extension tube is used to aloud a lenses to focus closer for macro photography, does an adapter have the same effect on the lenses. Example #1: If I were to buy a Sony Full Frame Camera (A7RIII) and use all my Canon EF lenses instead of buying all new Sony lenses, what effect would that have on light entering the camera? F stops, SS, and ISO. Example #2: If I bought a Canon R6 or R5 and used an adapter for my EF lenses, what effect would that have on the light entering the camera? F stops, SS and ISO.

I hope I explained my question so its understandable, if not I am sorry.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Joe W.
My question concerns Adapters vs Extension Tubes: ... (show quote)


The flange to sensor distance in Canon DSLRs is 44mm. The flange to sensor distance in Sony e-mount is 18mm and in Canon RF-mount, 20mm. The difference between these is where the adapter comes in. So in one case it's 24mm and in the other it's 26mm... that's about an inch in both cases (1 inch = 25.4mm, if I recall correctly).

This is minimal when it comes to light fall off that might effect any exposure considerations (f-2top, SS, ISO).

An adapter is usually a tube without any optics, but it is NOT a macro extension tube. It is a precise conversion from the original long "back focus" design of the DSLR lens (which was necessary to allow the mirror mechanism to move freely) so that the lens is able work with the shorter back focus design of the mirrorless camera. An adapter maintains correct focus all the way out to infinity, while a macro extension tube moves the lens farther from the camera so that it will focus closer, but giving up the ability to focus all the way to infinity while the tube is installed.

Macro extension tubes are also tubes without optics, sold in various lengths in order to change close focusing ability more or less (basic rule of thumb, the longer the lens focal length, the more extension you will need to make a significant change in lens close focusing ability and magnification). While most macro tubes are 12mm, 20mm, 25mm and 36mm long, there are some more than 50mm and they all can be stacked together for additional length. For that matter, the "old school" macro bellows is nothing more than an adjustable tube, which can be up to 250mm long (approx.) It would be possible to use an adapter AND macro tubes together.

Because macro tubes can mean a lot of "extension" behind the lens, light fall off within the tube can be a concern. But that can be the case even with high magnification lenses. For example, the Canon MP-E 65mm "super macro" can do up to 5X magnification (in fact, the least it can do is 1X... there's no shooting infinity or anywhere even close to it with this lens). When it's at minimum focus, the smallest selectable aperture is f/16. Once that lens is fully extended to it's maximum 5X magnification that same setting becomes an effective f/96 aperture!

Some of this occurs any time a lens is put onto an extension... or the lens itself extends (note that many zooms have variable apertures). But it is usually minimal. And because the camera's metering system takes its readings "through the lens" (TTL), a smaller effective aperture and light fall off are compensated for at the moment the measurement is made. Where you can get in trouble with effective apertures and light fall off are when using fully manual control and a separate meter, such as a hand held flash meter.

Also, there are adapters that are "speed boosters". They are also sometimes called "turbo" or "accelerator" adapters. Unlike the various "plain" lens adapters, these have built-in optics that somehow increase the effective brightness of the attached lens. I have no idea how this works and imagine these more costly types of adapters need some pretty advanced optics to maintain good image quality. The primary use of these appears to be video.... in particular when shooting 4K in the crop mode required. This is not to say they can't be used for still photos, though that seems more secondary. These adapters are intended for use on APS-C or similar crop. If working with a full frame camera, the resolution will be substantially reduced. For example, a 45MP R5 set to APS-C crop mode ends up under 20MP. That might be sufficient for a lot of things. It would be a bigger concern with a lower resolution FF camera, like the 20MP R6, which will end up around 8MP in APS-C crop mode.

These speed boosters may have more application with actual APS-C cameras, like the new Canon R10 or R7. On those the 0.71X booster makes the lens "act like" it would on full frame. For example, if you put a 50mm focal length lens directly onto one of these Canon APS-C cameras, or use a plain adapter to fit one, it will give you an angle of view similar to what an 80mm lens would on full frame. By using the booster you get the same angle of view a 50mm on FF. In other words, it "corrects" the APS-C crop effect back out of the angle of view. I believe it also effects depth of field the equivalent of one stop. So if that were a 50mm f/1.4 lens it will render depth of field more similar to f/1.0. There would be no loss of resolution using the speed booster on an APS-C camera.... so the 24MP R10 will still render 24MP images.

The least expensive 0.71X Canon EF to RF speed booster I could find is the Viltrox that sells for around $268. I found Viltrox also offers a Canon EF to Sony e-mount (APS-C) for $139. But other brands of speed boosters cost over $500 and even as much as $700.

Note that the Canon EF to RF adapters... both "plain" and "booster" types... generally give full support to autofocus, image stabilization, etc. Adapting Canon to Canon here is very little if any loss of performance. The same can't be said adapting Canon EF mount lenses to Sony e-mount... there's usually a noticeable drop in AF performance and other functions may not be fully supported either.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 16:38:28   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
amfoto1 wrote:

Also, there are adapters that are "speed boosters". They are also sometimes called "turbo" or "accelerator" adapters. Unlike the various "plain" lens adapters, these have built-in optics that somehow increase the effective brightness of the attached lens. I have no idea how this works and imagine these more costly types of adapters need some pretty advanced optics to maintain good image quality. The primary use of these appears to be video.... in particular when shooting 4K in the crop mode required. This is not to say they can't be used for still photos, though that seems more secondary. These adapters are intended for use on APS-C or similar crop. If working with a full frame camera, the resolution will be substantially reduced. For example, a 45MP R5 set to APS-C crop mode ends up under 20MP. That might be sufficient for a lot of things. It would be a bigger concern with a lower resolution FF camera, like the 20MP R6, which will end up around 8MP in APS-C crop mode.

These speed boosters may have more application with actual APS-C cameras, like the new Canon R10 or R7. On those the 0.71X booster makes the lens "act like" it would on full frame. For example, if you put a 50mm focal length lens directly onto one of these Canon APS-C cameras, or use a plain adapter to fit one, it will give you an angle of view similar to what an 80mm lens would on full frame. By using the booster you get the same angle of view a 50mm on FF. In other words, it "corrects" the APS-C crop effect back out of the angle of view. I believe it also effects depth of field the equivalent of one stop. So if that were a 50mm f/1.4 lens it will render depth of field more similar to f/1.0. There would be no loss of resolution using the speed booster on an APS-C camera.... so the 24MP R10 will still render 24MP images.

The least expensive 0.71X Canon EF to RF speed booster I could find is the Viltrox that sells for around $268. I found Viltrox also offers a Canon EF to Sony e-mount (APS-C) for $139. But other brands of speed boosters cost over $500 and even as much as $700.

br Also, there are adapters that are "speed ... (show quote)


Nothing magic about speed boosters. They have been around for a long time and are the opposite of teleconverters.

A lens produces a cone of light that falls upon the sensor. The lens is designed to have this cone just cover the intended sensor.

In the case of a teleconverter, the light is spread out so that the sensor only sees part of this cone, which results in a dimming of the light. You could call this a speed reducer if you like. For telescope users, it's called a Barlow lens which accomplishes the same thing, providing greater magnification at the expense of reduced light.

For a speed booster, it reduces that cone of light so that all of it is concentrated in a smaller area. Much like when you use a magnifying glass to concentrate the light into a smaller area. This is why it requires going from a lens with a wider cone of light, such as Full Frame, to a camera that only needs a narrower cone of light, such as APS-C or m43. So instead of the APS-C using only a portion of the light cone from a Full Frame lens, it uses the whole cone of light reduced down small enough to fit the smaller APS-C sensor giving the camera a wider FOV and at the same time causing the compressed light cone to have the same light seen by the Full Frame compressed into the space needed by the APS-C sensor resulting in a speed increase as seen by the camera. Telescopes have used them for years and they go by the name of focal reducers. I use these and they work very well with telescopes.

Speed boosters come from several companies and the quality varies just like it varies with different lens manufacturers. I have the Metabones for my E-Mount APS-C camera and it works very well with full frame type lenses. I also have the less expensive Zhongyi (if I spelled it correctly) and I find it gives me some vignetting in the corners.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 17:00:39   #
BebuLamar
 
JimH123 wrote:
Nothing magic about speed boosters. They have been around for a long time and are the opposite of teleconverters.

A lens produces a cone of light that falls upon the sensor. The lens is designed to have this cone just cover the intended sensor.

In the case of a teleconverter, the light is spread out so that the sensor only sees part of this cone, which results in a dimming of the light. You could call this a speed reducer if you like. For telescope users, it's called a Barlow lens which accomplishes the same thing, providing greater magnification at the expense of reduced light.

For a speed booster, it reduces that cone of light so that all of it is concentrated in a smaller area. Much like when you use a magnifying glass to concentrate the light into a smaller area. This is why it requires going from a lens with a wider cone of light, such as Full Frame, to a camera that only needs a narrower cone of light, such as APS-C or m43. So instead of the APS-C using only a portion of the light cone from a Full Frame lens, it uses the whole cone of light reduced down small enough to fit the smaller APS-C sensor giving the camera a wider FOV and at the same time causing the compressed light cone to have the same light seen by the Full Frame compressed into the space needed by the APS-C sensor resulting in a speed increase as seen by the camera. Telescopes have used them for years and they go by the name of focal reducers. I use these and they work very well with telescopes.

Speed boosters come from several companies and the quality varies just like it varies with different lens manufacturers. I have the Metabones for my E-Mount APS-C camera and it works very well with full frame type lenses. I also have the less expensive Zhongyi (if I spelled it correctly) and I find it gives me some vignetting in the corners.
Nothing magic about speed boosters. They have bee... (show quote)


Yup actually Nikon did it in their first DSLRs the E2 and E3. Those have tiny sensor but Nikon put and equivalent of a speed booster to give their lens the same angle of view as on the 35mm.

Reply
Jun 27, 2022 17:54:16   #
JW from PA
 
Wow, thank you all the info you presented. I am saving up for the R6 as the R5 is way out of my price range. At 76 soon to be 77 I am thinking of something lighter.
Thank you all again and stay safe out there. Happy shooting

Joe W.

Reply
Page 1 of 2 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.