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May 23, 2019 12:50:14   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
dennis2146 wrote:
Quite true. Many times there are a number of officers on the scene of a violent person. If that person pulls a firearm or in some way presents a threat to officers the public tends to think that only one officer should be the one pulling the trigger. But in real life these things usually happen in a fraction of a second. Who has time to decide who may be the selected officer pulling the trigger? Each officer shooting at the subject/suspect may or may not have any idea that other officers are even shooting at all.

In gunfights there is a common group of actions that take place mentally that are common. One is that visual acuity is enhanced of the subject you are shooting at. Other visual aspects drop far behind. Hearing is the same. Generally speaking when shooting a handgun, especially something with high velocity such as the common .357 Magnum revolver the noise, muzzle blast, is painful to the shooter. But in an actual gunfight the noise is hardly noticeable. I have read many accounts of actual gunfights and most people involved state that time seems to go into slow motion, with the opponent being in sharp view and other senses falling beside the wayside. Officers involved may have no idea what other officers are doing until afterward. Each officer is looking out for his own safety and when he sees a deadly threat, will respond to that threat.

I know the general public expects officers to know everything about the entire shooting but mentally speaking it is often impossible. Officers are taught to try to count their rounds fired to know when to reload. But that is not always possible when you are fighting for your life.

Dennis
Quite true. Many times there are a number of offic... (show quote)

Thanks for the info!

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May 23, 2019 13:19:17   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
Steven Seward wrote:
Thanks for the info!


Welcome.

Dennis

Reply
May 23, 2019 20:37:01   #
Tex-s
 
ArtzDarkroom wrote:
Somebody in California had an armory in his home, the law took his weapons. Just how many guns must a person own before we think he... usually men, is crazy?

Roe vs. Wade is on the horizon heading toward a conservative majority Supreme Court. If Trump is lucky, RBG will give up her seat, for him to fill. If the GOP is for smaller less intrusive government... no that was in the past. But if they were, why do they insist on controlling what happens in the womb?

I'm bored with Campaign news. Can we restrict it to 6 weeks? Isn't that how it's done in civilized countries?
Somebody in California had an armory in his home, ... (show quote)


From my seat, anti-abortion folks, in general, don't give a rat's ass about a womb, a vagina, or 'your' bedroom until someone adds a baby to the mix. THEN we have a moral obligation to speak for the innocent life that has no voice. Find me a uterus with no baby and I'm fine with you tattooing it, tying into a knot, or removing it. Same for vaginas. Same for penises, too. It's just those don't have capacity to grow a baby.

Reply
 
 
May 23, 2019 21:07:44   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Tex-s wrote:
From my seat, anti-abortion folks, in general, don't give a rat's ass about a womb, a vagina, or 'your' bedroom until someone adds a baby to the mix. THEN we have a moral obligation to speak for the innocent life that has no voice. Find me a uterus with no baby and I'm fine with you tattooing it, tying into a knot, or removing it. Same for vaginas. Same for penises, too. It's just those don't have capacity to grow a baby.


Reply
May 24, 2019 00:48:00   #
Angmo
 
ArtzDarkroom wrote:
Somebody in California had an armory in his home, the law took his weapons. Just how many guns must a person own before we think he... usually men, is crazy?

Roe vs. Wade is on the horizon heading toward a conservative majority Supreme Court. If Trump is lucky, RBG will give up her seat, for him to fill. If the GOP is for smaller less intrusive government... no that was in the past. But if they were, why do they insist on controlling what happens in the womb?

I'm bored with Campaign news. Can we restrict it to 6 weeks? Isn't that how it's done in civilized countries?
Somebody in California had an armory in his home, ... (show quote)



Reply
May 24, 2019 00:53:16   #
Angmo
 
Steven Seward wrote:
You brought up an elemental point that hadn't occurred to me, but is sensible. It reminds me of an event that took place in Cleveland a few years ago.

A couple fled from police in an automobile that led to a long chase through many suburbs and ended when the driver tried to run over officers and the police killed them with a hail of over one-hundred bullets. There was a big public outcry about excessive force because the police fired over one-hundred bullets. Nobody stopped to think that there is no difference in killing a suspect with one bullet or one-hundred. In fact, I thought that if a killing was justified, then one-hundred bullets was a much more thorough procedure than using one, because it is more likely to do the intended job. The officers were all exonerated, though one had to defend himself in court because of political pressure.
You brought up an elemental point that hadn't occu... (show quote)


So, do you know who put the last 5 bullets in Mussolini ??

300 Italian marksmen.


And. Actually - shooting people is not like shooting a paper target in a well lit indoor range. You really don’t know if you hit them unless they react in an expected way. And then maybe.

Sometimes they don’t know they are hit because of the drugs they are on. They may or may not bleed even.

It’s not like the movies. And the cop knows he’s a judge, jury and executioner all in an absolute split second. One of the toughest decisions he’ll make. Or not go home to his family.

Reply
May 24, 2019 04:03:42   #
Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 
Angmo wrote:
Sometimes they don’t know they are hit because of the drugs they are on. They may or may not bleed even.

It’s not like the movies.

In the movies a guy falls down right away and dies when he is shot. And the people around him know instantly that he is dead without checking for breathing or a heartbeat, and they never give CPR. The exception is when some hero like Rambo gets shot fifty times, strangled, drowned, and thrown off a cliff and still survives. The bullets that don't kill him are always convenient flesh wounds in the arm or leg, and never disfiguring wounds through the face, groin, or spinal column.

Reply
 
 
May 24, 2019 10:24:46   #
WNYShooter Loc: WNY
 
dennis2146 wrote:
Quite true. Many times there are a number of officers on the scene of a violent person. If that person pulls a firearm or in some way presents a threat to officers the public tends to think that only one officer should be the one pulling the trigger. But in real life these things usually happen in a fraction of a second. Who has time to decide who may be the selected officer pulling the trigger? Each officer shooting at the subject/suspect may or may not have any idea that other officers are even shooting at all.

In gunfights there is a common group of actions that take place mentally that are common. One is that visual acuity is enhanced of the subject you are shooting at. Other visual aspects drop far behind. Hearing is the same. Generally speaking when shooting a handgun, especially something with high velocity such as the common .357 Magnum revolver the noise, muzzle blast, is painful to the shooter. But in an actual gunfight the noise is hardly noticeable. I have read many accounts of actual gunfights and most people involved state that time seems to go into slow motion, with the opponent being in sharp view and other senses falling beside the wayside. Officers involved may have no idea what other officers are doing until afterward. Each officer is looking out for his own safety and when he sees a deadly threat, will respond to that threat.

I know the general public expects officers to know everything about the entire shooting but mentally speaking it is often impossible. Officers are taught to try to count their rounds fired to know when to reload. But that is not always possible when you are fighting for your life.

Dennis
Quite true. Many times there are a number of offic... (show quote)


One of my close friends, now a retired LEO, shared with me a story about his first and only gunfight of his career. He said the guy drew on him and he immediately took cover behind a tree. He said he was peeking around the tree and trying to talk the guy down when the guy fired at him. He said the guy fired 6 shots, so he came out from behind the tree only to have the guy shoot at him again, and again, fortunately missing him, then he heard it go click, as the gun was out just as my friend finally had him in sights. By then his backup was able to rush and tackle the guy from behind and the guy was taken without a shot. What was interesting was what he said he learned from that incident, and how wrong his perception was, despite all of the training he had in the military and the academy.

He said when the guy first presented, what he saw was the biggest silver "6 shooter" he had ever seen, had to be a 44 or bigger, he said the bore looked massive pointing at him. He said when he saw the first shot, it sounded and looked like a canon going off. He said once he counted 6 shots, he assumed the gun was empty--it obviously wasn't. He said he tried hard to get a clean shot at the guy but couldn't get a good picture on him or even take it because of a house behind the guy.

He said what he found once they had the guy, the gun was a 4" 22 cal 8 shot revolver. He said the house behind the guy was a brick garage almost 100 yards away. He said he was stunned when he found out just how small that gun was when it wasn't pointed at him. He also said he learned to not bother counting shots, consider every armed perp fully locked and loaded.

Reply
May 24, 2019 11:06:41   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
WNYShooter wrote:
One of my close friends, now a retired LEO, shared with me a story about his first and only gunfight of his career. He said the guy drew on him and he immediately took cover behind a tree. He said he was peeking around the tree and trying to talk the guy down when the guy fired at him. He said the guy fired 6 shots, so he came out from behind the tree only to have the guy shoot at him again, and again, fortunately missing him, then he heard it go click, as the gun was out just as my friend finally had him in sights. By then his backup was able to rush and tackle the guy from behind and the guy was taken without a shot. What was interesting was what he said he learned from that incident, and how wrong his perception was, despite all of the training he had in the military and the academy.

He said when the guy first presented, what he saw was the biggest silver "6 shooter" he had ever seen, had to be a 44 or bigger, he said the bore looked massive pointing at him. He said when he saw the first shot, it sounded and looked like a canon going off. He said once he counted 6 shots, he assumed the gun was empty--it obviously wasn't. He said he tried hard to get a clean shot at the guy but couldn't get a good picture on him or even take it because of a house behind the guy.

He said what he found once they had the guy, the gun was a 4" 22 cal 8 shot revolver. He said the house behind the guy was a brick garage almost 100 yards away. He said he was stunned when he found out just how small that gun was when it wasn't pointed at him. He also said he learned to not bother counting shots, consider every armed perp fully locked and loaded.
One of my close friends, now a retired LEO, shared... (show quote)


A great post and one that shows that what happens in any real gunfight is compounded by our senses, or lack of, in hearing, sight and vision. What we perceive may or may not be real. Many revolvers these days are no longer the old six shooters of the old days. With better steel manufacturers are able to make the old six shooters into 7 and 8 shooters. At least one manufacturer, Smith and Wesson, now makes a 10 shot revolver in .22 caliber. Believe it or not the old .22 rimfire is a very lethal cartridge when put in the right place. But there are numerous stories of people being hit six times with a 38 Special and other cartridges and didn't know they had been shot. It all depends on the physiological damage done to the body by the bullet itself.

My best to your friend on still being around,

Dennis

Reply
May 24, 2019 11:54:54   #
Angmo
 
dennis2146 wrote:
A great post and one that shows that what happens in any real gunfight is compounded by our senses, or lack of, in hearing, sight and vision. What we perceive may or may not be real. Many revolvers these days are no longer the old six shooters of the old days. With better steel manufacturers are able to make the old six shooters into 7 and 8 shooters. At least one manufacturer, Smith and Wesson, now makes a 10 shot revolver in .22 caliber. Believe it or not the old .22 rimfire is a very lethal cartridge when put in the right place. But there are numerous stories of people being hit six times with a 38 Special and other cartridges and didn't know they had been shot. It all depends on the physiological damage done to the body by the bullet itself.

My best to your friend on still being around,

Dennis
A great post and one that shows that what happens ... (show quote)


Many wounds can be around the hands as the focus you speak of can be of the firearm too. Training helps. The more the better.

When I teach females to shoot, they are generally pretty good shots. I’ll always put a T-shirt up on a target after they are done with paper bullseyes. They seem to shoot even better at t-shirts.

After they are more advanced, I’ll also go through a thought exercise with all students. You know the targets on paper that are labeled 1-9. I play a math game. I say place their shots in the two numbers that add up to the number I call out. i.e., I call out 11 and they need to shoot the 6 and 5. Or 7 and 4

Then subtraction. The number I call out, subtract 2.

And so on. Thinking matters.

That level of thinking matters if you’ve not tried it. They have to react to what they hear then think differently before shooting. A different feeling all together.

Reply
May 24, 2019 12:14:32   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
Angmo wrote:
Many wounds can be around the hands as the focus you speak of can be of the firearm too. Training helps. The more the better.

When I teach females to shoot, they are generally pretty good shots. I’ll always put a T-shirt up on a target after they are done with paper bullseyes. They seem to shoot even better at t-shirts.

After they are more advanced, I’ll also go through a thought exercise with all students. You know the targets on paper that are labeled 1-9. I play a math game. I say place their shots in the two numbers that add up to the number I call out. i.e., I call out 11 and they need to shoot the 6 and 5. Or 7 and 4

Then subtraction. The number I call out, subtract 2.

And so on. Thinking matters.

That level of thinking matters if you’ve not tried it. They have to react to what they hear then think differently before shooting. A different feeling all together.
Many wounds can be around the hands as the focus y... (show quote)


As a firearms instructor I have found that women can be better shots than men are. But that is ONLY if the women are genuinely interested in learning. Some of the women I taught, some men too, only wanted to learn enough to qualify with the particular firearm I was teaching, usually handgun or shotgun. Women do not have the hang ups that some men do such as refusing to use two hands to shoot. Apparently John Wayne never used two hands so why should men be unmanly and use two hands to shoot. The fact that they are more accurate using two hands doesn't occur to them. Some would rather look good shooting rather than actually place the bullets on target where they are supposed to go.

Women are often self encouraged to shoot well for protection from two legged animals that roam our streets today. One of the hang ups in our society today is the Liberal spread belief that the police will protect us so we have no need for learning to use firearms, and use them safely. In reality, even as a former LEO, it is true that when seconds count the police are only minutes away. Yes, an old saying, but still and always true.

Think of our kids today who might go to another kid's house after school to play. Maybe the kid doesn't have firearms in his house but his friend has numerous firearms in his house. Wouldn't it be nice if in grade school there was a two hour class on firearm safety? We seem to teach kids about safe use of matches, staying away from moving automobiles and so on but for some reason safety around firearms is never taught. Yet each year there are kids who know absolutely nothing about firearms who will go to a friends house, see a firearm and point it at his friend and pull the trigger. Rather than teaching kids to be afraid of firearms wouldn't it be common sense to point out that guns can be dangerous and to simply never touch it without an adult being there to check it for safety? Would that really step on anyone's toes? Would not the saved lives of children be worth a familiarization class?

Yes I know some Liberals don't want their kids around firearms at all and the mere thought of touching one is like me being afraid of snakes. It is an irrational fear yet one I do have. But at least my fear of snakes is evident to me and I have taken steps to correct it. I have gone to pet stores that carry snakes and have explained my fear and asked the clerk to help me hold a snake. I know they are not slimy or evil creatures and I have gotten better. I no longer kill snakes indiscriminately, except rattlesnakes. Yes I know you will tell me rattlesnakes are good for the environment, kill rodents and so on. But when I find one in my woodpile, in my garage, next to my house, then they are going to killed.

Dennis

Reply
 
 
May 24, 2019 12:58:07   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
ArtzDarkroom wrote:
Somebody in California had an armory in his home, the law took his weapons. Just how many guns must a person own before we think he... usually men, is crazy?

Roe vs. Wade is on the horizon heading toward a conservative majority Supreme Court. If Trump is lucky, RBG will give up her seat, for him to fill. If the GOP is for smaller less intrusive government... no that was in the past. But if they were, why do they insist on controlling what happens in the womb?

I'm bored with Campaign news. Can we restrict it to 6 weeks? Isn't that how it's done in civilized countries?
Somebody in California had an armory in his home, ... (show quote)


Hey Art, when you can admit that there is a human life inside the womb then maybe we could have an adult conversation about abortion, until then let's just throw bombs at each other.

Reply
May 24, 2019 14:29:05   #
Angmo
 
dennis2146 wrote:
As a firearms instructor I have found that women can be better shots than men are. But that is ONLY if the women are genuinely interested in learning. Some of the women I taught, some men too, only wanted to learn enough to qualify with the particular firearm I was teaching, usually handgun or shotgun. Women do not have the hang ups that some men do such as refusing to use two hands to shoot. Apparently John Wayne never used two hands so why should men be unmanly and use two hands to shoot. The fact that they are more accurate using two hands doesn't occur to them. Some would rather look good shooting rather than actually place the bullets on target where they are supposed to go.

Women are often self encouraged to shoot well for protection from two legged animals that roam our streets today. One of the hang ups in our society today is the Liberal spread belief that the police will protect us so we have no need for learning to use firearms, and use them safely. In reality, even as a former LEO, it is true that when seconds count the police are only minutes away. Yes, an old saying, but still and always true.

Think of our kids today who might go to another kid's house after school to play. Maybe the kid doesn't have firearms in his house but his friend has numerous firearms in his house. Wouldn't it be nice if in grade school there was a two hour class on firearm safety? We seem to teach kids about safe use of matches, staying away from moving automobiles and so on but for some reason safety around firearms is never taught. Yet each year there are kids who know absolutely nothing about firearms who will go to a friends house, see a firearm and point it at his friend and pull the trigger. Rather than teaching kids to be afraid of firearms wouldn't it be common sense to point out that guns can be dangerous and to simply never touch it without an adult being there to check it for safety? Would that really step on anyone's toes? Would not the saved lives of children be worth a familiarization class?

Yes I know some Liberals don't want their kids around firearms at all and the mere thought of touching one is like me being afraid of snakes. It is an irrational fear yet one I do have. But at least my fear of snakes is evident to me and I have taken steps to correct it. I have gone to pet stores that carry snakes and have explained my fear and asked the clerk to help me hold a snake. I know they are not slimy or evil creatures and I have gotten better. I no longer kill snakes indiscriminately, except rattlesnakes. Yes I know you will tell me rattlesnakes are good for the environment, kill rodents and so on. But when I find one in my woodpile, in my garage, next to my house, then they are going to killed.

Dennis
As a firearms instructor I have found that women c... (show quote)


I kill rattlers. Being in AZ, there are a few out here. One I killed in the mountains near a stream. Off with its head. Then put a couple rocks on top as the head can still bite. About a half hour later 5 or 6 10-15 year old girls walked with through that area up from a
Campground.

Likely saved one from a bad weekend and a disfiguring wound. Rattlers are shy guys and humans are not on their menu. But accidents do happen.

In AZ. It’s usually a guy bit on the hands (not feet ankles) and alcohol is involved. Idiots.

When I was a kid, my father, grandfather and I headed to some woods to do some target shooting. We parked and walked through a school grounds to the woods behind. No one thought anything of it. Kids saw us walking as did the teacher. Like nothing.

Reply
May 24, 2019 16:57:06   #
Texcaster Loc: Queensland
 
dennis2146 wrote:
As a firearms instructor I have found that women can be better shots than men are. But that is ONLY if the women are genuinely interested in learning. Some of the women I taught, some men too, only wanted to learn enough to qualify with the particular firearm I was teaching, usually handgun or shotgun. Women do not have the hang ups that some men do such as refusing to use two hands to shoot. Apparently John Wayne never used two hands so why should men be unmanly and use two hands to shoot. The fact that they are more accurate using two hands doesn't occur to them. Some would rather look good shooting rather than actually place the bullets on target where they are supposed to go.

Women are often self encouraged to shoot well for protection from two legged animals that roam our streets today. One of the hang ups in our society today is the Liberal spread belief that the police will protect us so we have no need for learning to use firearms, and use them safely. In reality, even as a former LEO, it is true that when seconds count the police are only minutes away. Yes, an old saying, but still and always true.

Think of our kids today who might go to another kid's house after school to play. Maybe the kid doesn't have firearms in his house but his friend has numerous firearms in his house. Wouldn't it be nice if in grade school there was a two hour class on firearm safety? We seem to teach kids about safe use of matches, staying away from moving automobiles and so on but for some reason safety around firearms is never taught. Yet each year there are kids who know absolutely nothing about firearms who will go to a friends house, see a firearm and point it at his friend and pull the trigger. Rather than teaching kids to be afraid of firearms wouldn't it be common sense to point out that guns can be dangerous and to simply never touch it without an adult being there to check it for safety? Would that really step on anyone's toes? Would not the saved lives of children be worth a familiarization class?

Yes I know some Liberals don't want their kids around firearms at all and the mere thought of touching one is like me being afraid of snakes. It is an irrational fear yet one I do have. But at least my fear of snakes is evident to me and I have taken steps to correct it. I have gone to pet stores that carry snakes and have explained my fear and asked the clerk to help me hold a snake. I know they are not slimy or evil creatures and I have gotten better. I no longer kill snakes indiscriminately, except rattlesnakes. Yes I know you will tell me rattlesnakes are good for the environment, kill rodents and so on. But when I find one in my woodpile, in my garage, next to my house, then they are going to killed.

Dennis
As a firearms instructor I have found that women c... (show quote)


As a ukulele luthiere instructor, I have found that women and young men are more willing to take instruction from a Yank, from the ranks of the old coots, than the older guys are.

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-430655-1.html

Reply
May 24, 2019 16:58:21   #
Texcaster Loc: Queensland
 
Angmo wrote:
I kill rattlers. Being in AZ, there are a few out here. One I killed in the mountains near a stream. Off with its head. Then put a couple rocks on top as the head can still bite. About a half hour later 5 or 6 10-15 year old girls walked with through that area up from a
Campground.

Likely saved one from a bad weekend and a disfiguring wound. Rattlers are shy guys and humans are not on their menu. But accidents do happen.

In AZ. It’s usually a guy bit on the hands (not feet ankles) and alcohol is involved. Idiots.

When I was a kid, my father, grandfather and I headed to some woods to do some target shooting. We parked and walked through a school grounds to the woods behind. No one thought anything of it. Kids saw us walking as did the teacher. Like nothing.
I kill rattlers. Being in AZ, there are a few out... (show quote)


" ... and killin' rattlesnakes with a trowel." Tom Waits

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