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Spatial Resolution and its correlation to Dynamic Range - is there an apex?
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Apr 20, 2019 15:22:08   #
BebuLamar
 
Chris T wrote:
Must there, Bebu? … hmmm … wonder if it's possible to look that up on the Net … hmmm …


As I said in the very first reply to your thread there is no correlation. If you compared something like a Nikon D100 and a Nikon D500 or D7200 you will see the newer cameras have more of both.
If you think there is a correlation, either you will have to make tests to determine these 2 values on a whole bunch of cameras, or you can perhaps use the data from an independent tester like DxO for example. Put the data in the table and see if there is any correlation.

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Apr 20, 2019 15:25:28   #
AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio
 
What a clown! This crap gets old.

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Apr 20, 2019 15:28:21   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
R.G. wrote:
I said in my first post "Don't use a higher resolution than you actually need". One of the determinants would be how large you intended to print. But if you could see beyond the loss of micro-detail, upsizing software would allow you to print large from a low res camera.

I do mostly landscapes, and it's widely recognised that high res is desirable, probably because it allows the camera to render things like distant foliage, grass etc with more detail, so I'm not completely dismissive of the desirability of high resolution. But I'm also aware of the desirability of strong, accurate colours and good noise performance at something other than base ISO, and I'd be reluctant to sacrifice any of those just for some extra micro-detail. A while back somebody posted a pic from a D3s taken at ISO 16000 and it was impressive how robust it looked. I would choose that kind of solidity over micro-detail if there had to be a choice (and if affordability wasn't an issue).

I don't know much about the Sonys that you mention, but I do know that the performance of some of the oldies-but-goldies is still impressive compared to more modern offerings. I'm thinking of cameras like the D3s, D4s, 5D mk1 and the like - which can be had at a reasonable price second hand. If you don't intend to clock up tens of thousands of shutter releases, second hand pro cameras seem like a good choice to me. I must admit I'm looking forward to seeing what the new Sony A7S iii is going to be like, but the price will keep it out of my reach.

RG (from the land of mint Aeros).
I said in my first post "Don't use a higher r... (show quote)


You're kidding, RG!!! … do you mean - Scotland - invented the Mint Aero Chocolate Bar???

Well, now - that's a far cry from Haggis, is it not?

The D3s is a 12MP camera, and the D4s is a 16MP camera. Both are only available, now, on the USED market, but it's possible, of course, some of the overseas vendors, might be able to provide a new D4.
The Df - which is only a Stills camera - has the same sensor as the D4 - and you can still buy that one new
... but, it's just a little pricey. Sony has about eight or nine models, now - in their FF MILC series. They are all up there, but the lower res ones - the 12mp bodies - may be closer to achieving Nirvana than the 42MP ones - which will, undoubtedly - provide higher Dynamic Range - but, at what cost?

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Apr 20, 2019 15:37:20   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
BebuLamar wrote:
As I said in the very first reply to your thread there is no correlation. If you compared something like a Nikon D100 and a Nikon D500 or D7200 you will see the newer cameras have more of both.
If you think there is a correlation, either you will have to make tests to determine these 2 values on a whole bunch of cameras, or you can perhaps use the data from an independent tester like DxO for example. Put the data in the table and see if there is any correlation.


Bebu … SPATIAL resolution - refers to individual pixel size, and thus, presumably - to pixel density - which increases as Max Res - goes up … so there HAS to be a formula for THAT - but, I'm not sure where you'd find it … or, how. So, given that - then, the reverse is implied - that when RES is DECREASED - there is LESS DENSITY - which means - therefore - the pictures created - when the pixels are NOT smaller, and all bunched up - as they are in higher-res cameras - are better. See - Airy Disk … for more info on this …

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Apr 20, 2019 15:43:37   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Chris T wrote:
I just don't buy that, Scotty … SPATIAL Res has to do with pixel size - so how can it NOT be related to Dynamic Range? … Don't the size of individual pixels, in some way - relate to the amount of DR achieved?

Absolutely not! There is absolutely no [inverse] correlation at all.

Look at a comparison between the 2008 12.2 MP D700 and the 2017 46.75 MP D850. The D850 has nearly 4x the MP (2X the linear resolution) and far more dynamic range.

The difference? Nine more years of development.


(Download)

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Apr 20, 2019 15:51:30   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Chris T wrote:
..Sony has about eight or nine models... but the lower res ones.... may be closer to achieving Nirvana than the 42MP ones - which will, undoubtedly - provide higher Dynamic Range - but, at what cost?


It would be interesting to know exactly what is compromised to maintain dynamic range in modern high res cameras. I suspect that in-camera processing does a good job of hiding the shortcomings that you get from smaller photo sites, but as you say - at a cost. And the claimed extra high ISO performance is questionable and doesn't seem to be entirely realistic. That's why I think the A7Siii will be interesting. It'll be a chance to compare on a level playing field. We should have larger photo sites combined with the best of modern sensor design and in-camera processing, which I suspect will produce some undeniable real world benefits.

(Scotland can claim to be the inventor of all sorts of things, but mint Aeros isn't one of them. I was assuming that foreigners see the UK as being "the country" with Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales as sub-divisions. Thanks for seeing Scotland as a country in its own right ).

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Apr 20, 2019 15:55:14   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
selmslie wrote:
Absolutely not! There is absolutely no [inverse] correlation at all.

Look at a comparison between the 2008 12.2 MP D700 and the 2017 46.75 MP D850. The D850 has nearly 4x the MP (2X the linear resolution) and far more dynamic range.

The difference? Nine more years of development.


You're comparing apples with oranges, Scotty …

This chart compares Dynamic Range - it doesn't compare SPATIAL resolution …

One comparing one of the 12MP Sony FF MILCs - with the D700 - would make MUCH MORE sense!!!!

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Apr 20, 2019 15:59:15   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
selmslie wrote:
A... Look at a comparison ....

And here is a comparison for Sony's A7s, A7 III and A7r III. The DR, where it matters to most of us - below ISO 6400 - is better for the two higher resolution models.

It's just that the A7s is deliberately designed for lower resolution low light or high speed photography.

But the S/N ratio (noise) is about the same for all three.


(Download)

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Apr 20, 2019 16:02:29   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Chris T wrote:
You're comparing apples with oranges, Scotty …

This chart compares Dynamic Range - it doesn't compare SPATIAL resolution …

One comparing one of the 12MP Sony FF MILCs - with the D700 - would make MUCH MORE sense!!!!

No wonder you are confused.

You don't need a chart to compare spatial resolution. All three cameras are full frame. The spatial resolution is defined by the MP (area) or the square root of the MP (linear).

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Apr 20, 2019 16:05:40   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
R.G. wrote:
It would be interesting to know exactly what is compromised to maintain dynamic range in modern high res cameras. I suspect that in-camera processing does a good job of hiding the shortcomings that you get from smaller photo sites, but as you say - at a cost. And the claimed extra high ISO performance is questionable and doesn't seem to be entirely realistic. That's why I think the A7Siii will be interesting. It'll be a chance to compare on a level playing field. We should have larger photo sites combined with the best of modern sensor design and in-camera processing, which I suspect will produce some undeniable real world benefits.

(Scotland can claim to be the inventor of all sorts of things, but mint Aeros isn't one of them. I was assuming that foreigners see the UK as being "the country" with Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales as sub-divisions. Thanks for seeing Scotland as a country in its own right ).
It would be interesting to know exactly what is co... (show quote)


You don't need to harp on about that with me, RG - as you know - I'm English, and don't make the mistake of combining Scotland (or Wales, or Northern Ireland) as one. But, when you view the UK as a whole - you MUST embrace all four components - England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland.

So - you were kidding me on the Mint Aero Bars - were you? … I told you about the case I ordered - huh?

Is the Sony a7sIII - one of the 12MP FF MILCs? … If so - yes, that's the one I'd be interested in knowing more about. I can't afford it - but if the Dynamic Range is on a par - with, say - the D850, or the a99 II - and the SPATIAL Res - is low enough not to include high noise levels AND - allow that much more latitude before diffraction cuts in, I daresay, I could make accommodation - even if it means cancelling Mint Aeros!

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Apr 20, 2019 16:13:00   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
selmslie wrote:
No wonder you are confused.

You don't need a chart to compare spatial resolution. All three cameras are full frame. The spatial resolution is defined by the MP (area) or the square root of the MP (linear).


Scotty … I am NOT confused !!!!

I DO understand all about high-resolution cameras. I also understand they are NOT the answer to everything … for one thing - they produce MORE NOISE than lower-res cameras. For another thing - diffraction starts to be a problem, sooner - the higher RES there is. The only thing there's NO DOUBT about - is the correlation between higher res, and Dynamic Range - there's NO ARGUMENT there. What this post was intended to be about - was finding the best compromise - be it, with a 12Mp camera, or a 16MP one.

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Apr 20, 2019 16:25:23   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Chris T wrote:
....Is the Sony a7sIII - one of the 12MP FF MILCs?....


The A7Siii is the next incarnation of the A7s series and it's not out yet. All we have to go on is rumours - which abound - and according to those rumours the resolution could be anything from 14 to 36 MP. A value at the lower end of that range seems more likely. According to comments from a Sony exec, it will be capable of 4K video recording, so 12MP would be a possibility. I think it's interesting that it's not 6K video, which would have meant a higher resolution (around the 24MP mark, I think).

There used to be a clear link between photo site size and dynamic range. I would consider it strange if that factor has become completely irrelevant. I've noticed a connection between dynamic range and the generation of processor used in the camera. My suspicion is that that's the more relevant factor, but I'm guessing.....

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Apr 20, 2019 16:26:26   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Chris T wrote:
... The only thing there's NO DOUBT about - is the correlation between higher res, and Dynamic Range - there's NO ARGUMENT there. ....

Of course there is an argument there. What do you think we have been arguing about?

You are the only one who thinks that there is a correlation. Nobody agrees with you. Is everyone out of step but you?

I suggest that you abandon this esoteric discussion and concentrate on learning about how to make a basic exposure with the cameras you already have. You have not shown us an image that demonstrates any ability.

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Apr 20, 2019 16:36:42   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
R.G. wrote:
The A7Siii is the next incarnation of the A7s series and it's not out yet. All we have to go on is rumours - which abound - and according to those rumours the resolution could be anything from 14 to 36 MP. A value at the lower end of that range seems more likely. According to comments from a Sony exec, it will be capable of 4K video recording, so 12MP would be a possibility. I think it's interesting that it's not 6K video, which would have meant a higher resolution (around the 24MP mark, I think).

There used to be a clear link between photo site size and dynamic range. I would consider it strange if that factor has become completely irrelevant. I've noticed a connection between dynamic range and the generation of processor used in the camera. My suspicion is that that's the more relevant factor, but I'm guessing.....
The A7Siii is the next incarnation of the A7s seri... (show quote)


Ah, I see, RG … but what about the current one of that model - that'd be the a7sII - right? Is that 12MP?

I'm pretty confused about all those a7 models, since there are so many. The only one I'm sure about is the a9 - the top o' the heap … THAT one's a 24MP camera - that, I know .. but there are two which are 42MP … and another two are what - 36MP - are they? and the other two are 12MP ones … think that's it.

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Apr 20, 2019 16:46:29   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Chris T wrote:
....what about the current one of that model - that'd be the a7sII - right? Is that 12MP?....


12.2MP. The A7S series have been notable for their exceptional low light capabilities, which I'm sure are due to the large photo sites combined with the latest sensor design. The new A7Siii promises to take that even further. My guess is that it won't depend on in-camera processing, so the benefits will be more substantial, and the high ISO performance claims will be more realistic.

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