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Apr 14, 2019 16:17:03   #
BebuLamar
 
nadelewitz wrote:
A client like this will hop from one photographer to another endlessly, never being satisfied. Good riddance.


Actually it's the kind of clients I want to keep and I can keep her for good if I can solve her problem. The customer is always right. What she hired the OP to do isn't so much artistic but rather almost 100% technical. It's a challenge but it does have rewards.

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Apr 14, 2019 16:39:58   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
"The customer is always right" is an overused, over simplistic phrase. I spent many years in sales, technical and non-technical.
No, the customer is NOT always right, but you can decide how much you can bend your principles/standards/profit motive to accommodate and retain a customer.

Good luck to you.

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Apr 14, 2019 18:14:11   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
There is a plethora of good advice here from knowledgable people but I would like to cut throgh some of the maze of information and bring up a few succent points and somethings that have been left out.

Color technology can be very complex. Some of us have been immersed in it for a lifetime because of our careers in photography, reproduction, graphic arts and lithography. Besides being photograhers, Burkphoto and I are old "lab-rats", Bill, probably more so involved than I. We can probably tell Y'all stuff about color technology that even Kodak, Ilford, GAF, and
3-M never wrote in their data books and instructions. That's not because we are great physicists and chemists (maybe Bill is) but when you work every day in the "trenches", dealing with all the variables, idiosyncrasies of the materials, chemistry and the photographers who are shooting all kinds of inconsistent and erratic exposures because they are NOT CAREFUL, you become an expert in troubleshooting, remedial solutions, and preventative measures. If photographers would listen to their lab staff or their outsourced lab managers, they woud be far ahead of the quality control game.

Yes, color management can be complex but it can be boiled down to proper shooting methods, taking time to do things in a disciplined manner and learning to know what you are doing before undertaking work that may lead to disappointment, disagreements and dissatisfied customers. Even if you are not a full-time pro, when you take on work for any remuneration or a job that may affect someone elses business, profession, art or life, you become the professional or acting-professional and the other person is the client.

There are frequent posts, right here on our forum, where photographers are complaining about difficulties with "customers". This not only occurs with art reproduction but also in portraiture, wedding photography, head-shots, model portfolios, and product shots. Most of the time, the photographer blames and derides the "dreadful" customer. Then there are a chorus of SOME, (not all) others who the jump in and knock the (unknown) customer or advise the photographer on flippant comebacks that will probably only aggravate the customer even more. Problem is, anything you say, AFTER the fact, that was not thoroughly discussed and understood in ADVANCE, even if it is correct and totally honest, will usually fall on deaf ears when a client is dissatisfied.

I realize that all the "offending" photographers are not nasty or incompetent folks, and in fact, they are probably well-meaning people who want to help someone out with their photographic needs and do a good job. So...where are they going wrong?

I am not a business consultant or some kind of a guru but after 50+ years in BUSINESS, I can tell you a thing or two about customer relations. Most customers will respond well to honest approaches and product knowledge. Any job worth doing is worth planning. So my advice is simple: Don't take on work that you feel you are not capable of and may not result in customer satisfaction. Make certain that you are equipped to do the work with all the necessary gear and materials. You are the PRO and it is your job to inform IN ADVANCE what is possible to deliver in terms of the client's expectations. You can not do the impossible, something that you are not equipped for or satisfy a client with unrealistic expectations. If there is no meeting of the minds there can not be a logical, enforceable or fair contract. What's worse, is when there is no written contract will all the stipulations, disclaimers and mutual understandings. It is sometimes better to gracefully decline the job than to invite unmitigated aggravation.

In this specific case, art reproduction, you have to educate the customer with all the facts that were alluded to in this and other threads on the subject. You should find out and write into the contract the eventual usages of the work, where and how it will be displayed, transmitted, shared, printed- the method of printing or further reproduction, the lighting conditions at the place of display. You specify all of this in the contract and just as importantly, you work all of the input you shooting plan and methodologies. Make the client very aware of any limitations or possible unforeseen problems. Disclaim responsibility for faulty, vastly different, or calibrated monitors and screens. Believe me, clients love product knowledge and honesty. It's refreshing because there is so little of it in today's retail and service industries. I know- I go shopping all the time! When I find a professional, salesperson, contractor, car dealer who is totally honest, enthusiastic and quality oriented and very knowledgeable, he or she has my business of for life!

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Apr 14, 2019 18:36:04   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
BigDJim wrote:
After photographing a color painting, the client looked over my shoulder as I "tweaked" colors and arrived at a finished product on my color-calibrated MacBook Pro. During the editing phase, the artwork was illuminated by an identical light source as used to photograph the painting and was positioned next to my computer. Upon completion, the client approved and was delighted with the finished product. To insure there would be no transmission problems, I presented her with a flash drive containing the photos of her painting.

Then she got home, downloaded the flash drive on her laptop to show to her husband or to send to the panel of judges in hopes of gaining entry in an art show and she wrote me to say that when our work was downloaded the color was off, the overall composition looked faded and in essence, suddenly, everything was unacceptable.

I honestly don't know how to control something like this when photos are edited on a MacPro, the client accepts the finished product and later reviews their artwork on what might be an aging or second-tier brand computer. If anyone has a suggestion, I would delight in hearing it, but as I see it, this is a no-win situation. Other artists are wanting me to do work with them photographing their artwork, as well, but I don't think I can satisfy any of them as far as getting the exacting colors they expect, especially in light of all of them probably reviewing my work on their home computers. Most of these people have never heard the words "color calibrated", leave alone having performed this procedure on their personal computers.

I would love hearing from anyone having experienced this same problem who might have a solution. In fact, I'd love hearing from anyone who has an idea, a system or procedure that might work. Thanks.
After photographing a color painting, the client l... (show quote)


Write a disclaimer stating that if viewed on a non-calibrated monitor or TV that each looks different. Then have them sign it with a quick explanation of what it means.

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Apr 14, 2019 18:53:09   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
nadelewitz wrote:
"The customer is always right" is an overused, over simplistic phrase. I spent many years in sales, technical and non-technical.
No, the customer is NOT always right, but you can decide how much you can bend your principles/standards/profit motive to accommodate and retain a customer.

Good luck to you.


A much better truism is that the customer always needs and benefits from EDUCATION. However, to educate a customer, you must get their permission by appealing to their needs, wants, and circumstances.

"You need correct color rendition of your art images on your computer monitor. I want you to have that. Here's how you get that..."

Take them from where they are (an actual state of being wrong, misled, innocently ignorant of the laws of physics, or whatever...) to where you need them to be. To do that, you "sit on the same side of the table and solve the problem together." Be prepared to demonstrate with actual examples, equipment, etc.

In our lab, we always had some big customer blaming us for his mistakes behind the camera or the monitor. So I armed myself with a binder full of examples of, "Here's what went wrong and here's the solution" articles. We would sit down with the customer and illustrate the problem, possible causes, and solutions. They often came in on edge and upset, but then left with more respect for us and what we knew, and the knowledge of how to get what they wanted next time...

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Apr 14, 2019 20:03:24   #
BlueMorel Loc: Southwest Michigan
 
burkphoto wrote:
A much better truism is that the customer always needs and benefits from EDUCATION. However, to educate a customer, you must get their permission by appealing to their needs, wants, and circumstances.

"You need correct color rendition of your art images on your computer monitor. I want you to have that. Here's how you get that..."

Take them from where they are (an actual state of being wrong, misled, innocently ignorant of the laws of physics, or whatever...) to where you need them to be. To do that, you "sit on the same side of the table and solve the problem together." Be prepared to demonstrate with actual examples, equipment, etc.

In our lab, we always had some big customer blaming us for his mistakes behind the camera or the monitor. So I armed myself with a binder full of examples of, "Here's what went wrong and here's the solution" articles. We would sit down with the customer and illustrate the problem, possible causes, and solutions. They often came in on edge and upset, but then left with more respect for us and what we knew, and the knowledge of how to get what they wanted next time...
A much better truism is that the customer always n... (show quote)


What a great customer relations solution! Long ago I was night dispatcher for a tow company who had a police contract, leading to many early morning calls from angry customers. I found that if I were businesslike, acknowledged their feelings, and responded with facts that most often they calmed down and were easier to deal with when they came in to pick up their car. Facts and examples work better than explanations.

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Apr 14, 2019 20:34:13   #
tropics68 Loc: Georgia
 
BigDJim wrote:
After photographing a color painting, the client looked over my shoulder as I "tweaked" colors and arrived at a finished product on my color-calibrated MacBook Pro. During the editing phase, the artwork was illuminated by an identical light source as used to photograph the painting and was positioned next to my computer. Upon completion, the client approved and was delighted with the finished product. To insure there would be no transmission problems, I presented her with a flash drive containing the photos of her painting.

Then she got home, downloaded the flash drive on her laptop to show to her husband or to send to the panel of judges in hopes of gaining entry in an art show and she wrote me to say that when our work was downloaded the color was off, the overall composition looked faded and in essence, suddenly, everything was unacceptable.

I honestly don't know how to control something like this when photos are edited on a MacPro, the client accepts the finished product and later reviews their artwork on what might be an aging or second-tier brand computer. If anyone has a suggestion, I would delight in hearing it, but as I see it, this is a no-win situation. Other artists are wanting me to do work with them photographing their artwork, as well, but I don't think I can satisfy any of them as far as getting the exacting colors they expect, especially in light of all of them probably reviewing my work on their home computers. Most of these people have never heard the words "color calibrated", leave alone having performed this procedure on their personal computers.

I would love hearing from anyone having experienced this same problem who might have a solution. In fact, I'd love hearing from anyone who has an idea, a system or procedure that might work. Thanks.
After photographing a color painting, the client l... (show quote)


My wife paints as a hobby. Several years ago she painted a "portrait" of one of our neighbors horses that is really beautiful. She was so proud she wanted to present the horse's owners with a print. Now my wife is a stickler for perfection when she paints so the print had to be exactly like the oil painting original. She decided to use a process called giclee. The results were stunning and from just a few feet away the print and the original were indistinguishable.

For those who are interested here is a site to visit.

https://www.artworkarchive.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-giclee-prints

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Apr 14, 2019 20:53:57   #
brianmcnarch
 
Longshadow wrote:
...
...
Red is grey is yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion.

-GE/MB
Late Lament


how about a touch of grey?

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