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Waterfall cream - Techniques?
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Apr 6, 2019 16:21:26   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
Looking for some techniques for creating that creamy waterfall look.
I will post what I do and others please chime in with any other techniques.
Posting some pics here and if you pixel peep you will see there is the effects of vibration or lens issue...not sure which. I was using my 70D with 24-70F4LIS lens so not the highest quality setup and I was in a rush so the trek guide pushed the button for me (2 sec delay). if you look at the little petals on the rocks you can see the effects of the lens or camera movement. Generally pleased given the setup time I had but I am not sure how much better they can be. I don't know what I should expect.
The tall waterfall was with a 5dMkiv with 70-200 on a tripod.
What would I do differently to get better/sharper pics?
(they are heavily edited in LR ...no Photoshop).

So far, here is what I do:
Tripod
ND Variable filter
Mirrorlock up
Triggered or 10sec delay (allow any mirror slap vibration or "human shutter button pushing" to settle out.
Tried to stay out of the wind. (there was very little to none)

Q:
1) How much does the quality of the tripod contribute to the shake? (I had my BeFree travel tripod which is well undersized I think.)
2) Would shooting with a prime make a difference in the sharpness? (ie I am expecting to much pixel peeping goodness from the 24-70 and the 70-200?)
3) Do I need to be using a 50mp sensor camera to capture more detail?
4) How much does the ND filter affect sharpness/detail (using a Hoya Variable ND circular filter)

Any additional tricks or techniques would be appreciated.

Thanks.


(Download)


(Download)

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Apr 6, 2019 17:02:23   #
tradio Loc: Oxford, Ohio
 
Sounds like you are on the right track with your procedure although, the variable ND's can cause problems. Maybe instead of the ND, drop your ISO as low as you can.
Keep the tripod as short as possible and don't use any extension, ie have the camera sitting on top of the legs instead of the extension, if one is provided.
Hanging some weight on the tripod will help with the stabilization.
I have not tried this but, I have heard of stacking several shots to get the creamy waterfall effect.

Reply
Apr 6, 2019 17:08:41   #
repleo Loc: Boston
 
crazydaddio wrote:
Looking for some techniques for creating that creamy waterfall look.
I will post what I do and others please chime in with any other techniques.
Posting some pics here and if you pixel peep you will see there is the effects of vibration or lens issue...not sure which. I was using my 70D with 24-70F4LIS lens so not the highest quality setup and I was in a rush so the trek guide pushed the button for me (2 sec delay). if you look at the little petals on the rocks you can see the effects of the lens or camera movement. Generally pleased given the setup time I had but I am not sure how much better they can be. I don't know what I should expect.
The tall waterfall was with a 5dMkiv with 70-200 on a tripod.
What would I do differently to get better/sharper pics?
(they are heavily edited in LR ...no Photoshop).

So far, here is what I do:
Tripod
ND Variable filter
Mirrorlock up
Triggered or 10sec delay (allow any mirror slap vibration or "human shutter button pushing" to settle out.
Tried to stay out of the wind. (there was very little to none)

Q:
1) How much does the quality of the tripod contribute to the shake? (I had my BeFree travel tripod which is well undersized I think.)
2) Would shooting with a prime make a difference in the sharpness? (ie I am expecting to much pixel peeping goodness from the 24-70 and the 70-200?)
3) Do I need to be using a 50mp sensor camera to capture more detail?
4) How much does the ND filter affect sharpness/detail (using a Hoya Variable ND circular filter)

Any additional tricks or techniques would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Looking for some techniques for creating that crea... (show quote)


My ‘stream of consciousness’ thoughts for what they are worth:
I think you were asking too much of your travel tripod with a heavy camera and a long lens at long exposure.

There is usually a lot of air vibration around water falls.

What did you focus on and did you lock focus?

Was IS turned off?

Exposure on the first one seems a bit funky. Too much PP maybe?

A good prime will usually be better than a zoom but a prime won’t compensate for a shaky tripod.

Extra pixels won’t help.

It is hard to sit perfectly still for 10 seconds.

They are not that bad. I wouldn’t complain about them

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2019 17:31:11   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
repleo wrote:
My ‘stream of consciousness’ thoughts for what they are worth:
I think you were asking too much of your travel tripod with a heavy camera and a long lens at long exposure.

There is usually a lot of air vibration around water falls.
I was pretty far away (probably several miles) on the far side of the Waimea Valley. There was very little wind (if any)

What did you focus on and did you lock focus?
I focused on the top of the waterfall (F9.0) shot some at F12-18 but similar results.

Was IS turned off?
No. Heard competing opinions about this. In both cases, they are fairley new lenses with the most recent IS tech and was told that it doesnt matter. (Although I should probably test that)

Exposure on the first one seems a bit funky. Too much PP maybe?
It was exposed in the middle but lots of haze (which could contribute to sharpness for sure). Dehaze was used in pp in LR so I should be happier with what I got here:-)

A good prime will usually be better than a zoom but a prime won’t compensate for a shaky tripod.
agree.

Extra pixels won’t help.
...certainly not any blur....may even make it appear worse....but if the focus is nailed and vibration/blur are eliminated, I hear it can be incredible.

It is hard to sit perfectly still for 10 seconds.
The 10sec was shutter timer. The exposure was between 0.5 and 1 sec.
I had seen a video from Thomas Heaton that showed for longer lenses especially, if you tocuh the camera or flip the mirror, it can take several seconds for the image in the viewfinder to stop "moving"

They are not that bad. I wouldn’t complain about them
My ‘stream of consciousness’ thoughts for what the... (show quote)


Thanks for your response .
My thoughts...

I think you were asking too much of your travel tripod with a heavy camera and a long lens at long exposure.

There is usually a lot of air vibration around water falls.
I was pretty far away (probably several miles) on the far side of the Waimea Valley. There was very little wind (if any).

What did you focus on and did you lock focus?
I focused on the top of the waterfall (F9.0) shot some at F12-18 but similar results.

Was IS turned off?
No. Heard competing opinions about this. In both cases, they are fairly new lenses with the most recent IS tech and was told that it doesnt matter. (Although I should probably test that)

Exposure on the first one seems a bit funky. Too much PP maybe?
It was exposed in the middle but lots of haze (which could contribute to sharpness for sure). Dehaze was used in pp in LR so I should be happier with what I got here:-) Lighting was not perfect either as the sun was not fully up and the waterfall/valley was not in direct sunlight yet. I am sure that is the biggest contributor....

A good prime will usually be better than a zoom but a prime won’t compensate for a shaky tripod.
agree.

Extra pixels won’t help.
...certainly not any blur....may even make it appear worse....but if the focus is nailed and vibration/blur are eliminated, I hear it can be incredible.

It is hard to sit perfectly still for 10 seconds.
The 10sec was shutter timer. The exposure was between 0.5 and 1 sec.
I had seen a video from Thomas Heaton that showed for longer lenses especially, if you touch the camera or flip the mirror, it can take several seconds for the image in the viewfinder to stop "moving"

I am reasonably happy with the results as this is not my area of expertise but looking to learn all I can.
Thanks for your response. Will definitely have to invest in a better tripod :-)

Reply
Apr 6, 2019 17:35:41   #
SnappyHappy Loc: Chapin, SC “The Capitol of Lake Murray”
 
These look very sharp downloaded on my iPad. If you’re talking about the leaves in the extreme foreground of your photos being soft, I think that is just the Orton effect of distance within the DOF. If I’m more than 100 yards from my car I never complain about the capabilities of my traveler tripod...in fact the further I walk the steadier it gets. Two nice waterfalls and a beautiful babe in #2

Reply
Apr 6, 2019 17:38:47   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
tradio wrote:
Sounds like you are on the right track with your procedure although, the variable ND's can cause problems. Maybe instead of the ND, drop your ISO as low as you can.
Keep the tripod as short as possible and don't use any extension, ie have the camera sitting on top of the legs instead of the extension, if one is provided.
Hanging some weight on the tripod will help with the stabilization.
I have not tried this but, I have heard of stacking several shots to get the creamy waterfall effect.
Sounds like you are on the right track with your p... (show quote)


I will do more research on the variable NDs. They are basically 2 polarizing filters that are opposite each other. So effectively 2 more pieces of "glass" that are not designed the level of the quality of the lens. I was shooting at 100iso on the 70D and 50 ISO on the 5dMkiv. shooting at F9-18. Needed the ND to allow the shutter speed to go high enough to get the creamy effect.
I did as you recommended in terms of the stock being at the apex of the tripod legs (no extension). I did not hang a weight (may try that next time but I fear my BeFree Manfrotto travel tripod will just give it up)

Thanks for the feedback !

Reply
Apr 6, 2019 19:13:15   #
Bill Munny Loc: Aurora, Colorado
 
Might try this method, which will cause a lot of grumbling from others.

Bracket your shots with the shutter speed around 1/250 or higher. Do not change anything and take at least 5 shots, maybe up to 10 shots or more. Make sure your camera is on a sturdy tripod (you can get vibration from the water if the falls are close and surging). Do this method for different locations of the same waterfall. Then, when you get home, do your post processing with stacking (this is not an HDR stack method since you have changed nothing). The only thing that changed is the water. When doing the stacking try it with 3, 5, 7 and 10 files, and you will find the right number of files to use. I really like doing this because you don't have a bunch of shake and no messing around with the ND filters. Good luck and if you do use this method I would love to see your results.

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2019 19:32:36   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
Bill Munny wrote:
Might try this method, which will cause a lot of grumbling from others.

Bracket your shots with the shutter speed around 1/250 or higher. Do not change anything and take at least 5 shots, maybe up to 10 shots or more. Make sure your camera is on a sturdy tripod (you can get vibration from the water if the falls are close and surging). Do this method for different locations of the same waterfall. Then, when you get home, do your post processing with stacking (this is not an HDR stack method since you have changed nothing). The only thing that changed is the water. When doing the stacking try it with 3, 5, 7 and 10 files, and you will find the right number of files to use. I really like doing this because you don't have a bunch of shake and no messing around with the ND filters. Good luck and if you do use this method I would love to see your results.
Might try this method, which will cause a lot of g... (show quote)


Will try it....I would think that the wind would need to be 0 with leaf movement etc wrecking the bracketing. I suppose you could go into photoshop and mask the water area with the bracketed shots and then just use one of shots to do the unmasked areas around the water so the tree/leaf/cloud movement would be eliminated...

Reply
Apr 6, 2019 21:04:24   #
repleo Loc: Boston
 
crazydaddio wrote:
I will do more research on the variable NDs. Needed the ND to allow the shutter speed to go high enough to get the creamy effect.


If you are considering switching from the variable ND take a look at Breakthrough Photography NDs. They have a good long exposure guide at https://theartofphotography.lpages.co/52-page-long-exposure-guide/ and a good ND filter buying guide. Their filters really are good.

Reply
Apr 6, 2019 21:06:58   #
roadsideron Loc: Apache Junction, AZ
 
I took the liberty of working on your photo. Right now I don't have a life so I look for things to do. This wasn't that hard to fix with PSP 2019 using auto levels, NIK Collection (the free version) and high pass sharpen.


(Download)

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Apr 6, 2019 21:29:09   #
Dr.Nikon Loc: Honolulu Hawaii
 
A prime lens and a sturdy tripod / no center column .. electronic shutter / mirror up ... a lot of water blur can be affected in Photoshop, .. and also NDs work .. but no wind pls .. if you want detail on non moving leaves and bushes ..

A touch of blur
A touch of blur...
(Download)

A little photoshop mix .., the water falls are ..
A little photoshop mix .., the water  falls  are ....
(Download)

Reply
 
 
Apr 7, 2019 06:27:43   #
Chris Hayes
 
The first picture looks like the waterfall in the Kauai Grand Canyon, taken from one of the many lookouts from the road up the canyon, so you are a long ways from the subject. I believe your tripod was the limiting factor. If a Tripod is not sturdy then its of little value, after all that's its only job in life to me. Adding weight does not help other than reducing the wind effects a little. You need a longish exposure to get the creamy water effect, but it does not need to be that long. It should be well within the ability of your camera to expose for that length. Also use a time release so you don't induce any shake to the camera.
The second picture looks very good so i more likely to be tripod issues than your technique.

Reply
Apr 7, 2019 06:33:13   #
Manglesphoto Loc: 70 miles south of St.Louis
 
crazydaddio wrote:
Looking for some techniques for creating that creamy waterfall look.
I will post what I do and others please chime in with any other techniques.
Posting some pics here and if you pixel peep you will see there is the effects of vibration or lens issue...not sure which. I was using my 70D with 24-70F4LIS lens so not the highest quality setup and I was in a rush so the trek guide pushed the button for me (2 sec delay). if you look at the little petals on the rocks you can see the effects of the lens or camera movement. Generally pleased given the setup time I had but I am not sure how much better they can be. I don't know what I should expect.
The tall waterfall was with a 5dMkiv with 70-200 on a tripod.
What would I do differently to get better/sharper pics?
(they are heavily edited in LR ...no Photoshop).

So far, here is what I do:
Tripod
ND Variable filter
Mirrorlock up
Triggered or 10sec delay (allow any mirror slap vibration or "human shutter button pushing" to settle out.
Tried to stay out of the wind. (there was very little to none)

Q:
1) How much does the quality of the tripod contribute to the shake? (I had my BeFree travel tripod which is well undersized I think.)
2) Would shooting with a prime make a difference in the sharpness? (ie I am expecting to much pixel peeping goodness from the 24-70 and the 70-200?)
3) Do I need to be using a 50mp sensor camera to capture more detail?
4) How much does the ND filter affect sharpness/detail (using a Hoya Variable ND circular filter)

Any additional tricks or techniques would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Looking for some techniques for creating that crea... (show quote)


Personally I like to SOME real flowing water in a photo, the Creamy effect just looks too phony to me.

Reply
Apr 7, 2019 08:01:21   #
tcthome Loc: NJ
 
Sometimes keeping your hand with slight downward pressure on your set up helps with vibration on a tripod. I think Moose Peterson ( & maybe Steve Perry) have vids on you tube on this subject. I gave tried this with a longer lens & it does work.

Reply
Apr 7, 2019 09:01:46   #
rond-photography Loc: Connecticut
 
crazydaddio wrote:
Looking for some techniques for creating that creamy waterfall look.
I will post what I do and others please chime in with any other techniques.
Posting some pics here and if you pixel peep you will see there is the effects of vibration or lens issue...not sure which. I was using my 70D with 24-70F4LIS lens so not the highest quality setup and I was in a rush so the trek guide pushed the button for me (2 sec delay). if you look at the little petals on the rocks you can see the effects of the lens or camera movement. Generally pleased given the setup time I had but I am not sure how much better they can be. I don't know what I should expect.
The tall waterfall was with a 5dMkiv with 70-200 on a tripod.
What would I do differently to get better/sharper pics?
(they are heavily edited in LR ...no Photoshop).

So far, here is what I do:
Tripod
ND Variable filter
Mirrorlock up
Triggered or 10sec delay (allow any mirror slap vibration or "human shutter button pushing" to settle out.
Tried to stay out of the wind. (there was very little to none)

Q:
1) How much does the quality of the tripod contribute to the shake? (I had my BeFree travel tripod which is well undersized I think.)
2) Would shooting with a prime make a difference in the sharpness? (ie I am expecting to much pixel peeping goodness from the 24-70 and the 70-200?)
3) Do I need to be using a 50mp sensor camera to capture more detail?
4) How much does the ND filter affect sharpness/detail (using a Hoya Variable ND circular filter)

Any additional tricks or techniques would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Looking for some techniques for creating that crea... (show quote)


I have a question first of all - did you shut off image stabilization on the tall falls? On a tripod, that can cause blurriness as the camera tries to stabilize a stable image.
It appears to be a hazy day. Misty, perhaps. That will also give you the blur seen throughout the photo. Not a bad thing - I often get up on a foggy day and jump in the car to shoot! You will never get ultra sharp photos in those conditions, though. It is like shooting through a pane of glass with a slight fog on it.
Also, F18 could be less sharp, but to get the low shutter speed, probably the best you can do.

In the photo with the people, I see it could be a little sharper. Once again - image stabilization on? Is the ND filter introducing haze? Try some shots with and without and compare.

Last, yes, your tripod could do it. I have a MeFoto travel tripod and when I rented a Nikon D700 to try before deciding on my Olympus, I found that the tripod is definitely not up to the task of such a heavy camera. I got a much better, carbon tripod (Feisol) and not much will move it.

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