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Mar 15, 2023 06:15:40   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
The hopper wrote:
I currently use Lightroom (OK, not too well) and am trying to learn Photoshop. My understanding is that if you do work in Photoshop on a RAW file, you permanently change the file. Firstly, is this correct? and second, does this mean you should create a copy of the original and work on the copy so you don't "corrupt" the original??
Thanks!


My original will always be on my memory card. When you bring a RAW file out of Photoshop RAW it becomes a Jpeg. Interestingly you can always, when working on the Jpeg, go back into RAW photoshop with a Ctrl/Shift/A command and work on it some more with the slides there and then bring it back again when your done.

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Mar 15, 2023 07:26:22   #
Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb
 
I have always copied my pictures on a separate external file as taken by date and keep it.

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Mar 15, 2023 07:34:47   #
coolhanduke Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
 
If in doubt, just do a “save as” when closing your file. Save it as a TIG or JPG file.

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Mar 15, 2023 07:54:20   #
bbq4270 Loc: Blainville, Quebec Canada
 
As a recent subscriber to LRC/PS, I find this link as an excellent teaching aid. Thank you very much for sharing.

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Mar 15, 2023 09:52:11   #
BobHartung Loc: Bettendorf, IA
 
The hopper wrote:
I currently use Lightroom (OK, not too well) and am trying to learn Photoshop. My understanding is that if you do work in Photoshop on a RAW file, you permanently change the file. Firstly, is this correct? and second, does this mean you should create a copy of the original and work on the copy so you don't "corrupt" the original??
Thanks!


If you open a RAW image in Photoshop from Lightroom Classic (LrC) and then save it by typing Cmd(Ctrl)+S it will be saved back to LrC as either a jpg or tif/psd image. Note that only .tif and .psd (or.psb for very large images) documents save layers in their original states.

Your options are changed in Lightroom -> Preferences -> External Editing accessed as in the image. Those happen to be my preferences. Also note that you can add many external editors the dialog box just below this one.



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Mar 15, 2023 11:31:13   #
Paul Murray
 
I always make a duplicate of the original file before I start messing with it no matter what software I use. Photoshop allows you to make changes before you apply them. You can do this progressively as you go, checking with the original or last saved iteration. This keeps the original and/or saved file intact until you apply the changes.
Check me on this but I believe Affinity Photo also allows non destructive editing.

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Mar 15, 2023 11:40:21   #
BobHartung Loc: Bettendorf, IA
 
Paul Murray wrote:
I always make a duplicate of the original file before I start messing with it no matter what software I use. Photoshop allows you to make changes before you apply them. You can do this progressively as you go, checking with the original or last saved iteration. This keeps the original and/or saved file intact until you apply the changes.
Check me on this but I believe Affinity Photo also allows non destructive editing.


Why would he want to pay extra for Affinity Photo? He apparently has the Adobe subscription so he might as well get his feet wet on the LrC - Photoshop nexus and at least learn something about the language of photo editing.

My personal opinion is that he will find PS too daunting as he doesn't seem to do LrC skillfully.

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Mar 15, 2023 12:31:21   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Another primary benefit of Lightroom Classic is this editor is non destructive. As discussed, the image content of the RAW files are read-only. But for all image types, LR imports a reference to the image, not the image file itself. Work is done internal to the LR catalog and a new physical file is created via the Export process of those edits. Lightroom Classic does not even have a 'save' command.

Creating copies of copies and similar 1990s style computer file management approaches have no relevance to LR-based workflow.

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Mar 15, 2023 12:32:04   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Paul Murray wrote:
I always make a duplicate of the original file before I start messing with it no matter what software I use. Photoshop allows you to make changes before you apply them. You can do this progressively as you go, checking with the original or last saved iteration. This keeps the original and/or saved file intact until you apply the changes.
Check me on this but I believe Affinity Photo also allows non destructive editing.

In a raw workflow both Photoshop and Affinity are not fully non-destructive. Both will refrain from overwriting raw data as will all editors that process raw files, but they do not provide a 100% non-destructive editing process as does for example LR. PS and Affinity are raster editors whereas LR is a parametric editor -- therein the difference.

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Mar 15, 2023 12:38:13   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
Your questions have been answered regarding raw files, but please remember that Photoshop is a destructive editor.

When you save a file and close it from PS you can’t go back and reopen the file and un-do those changes.

So if you are re-editing a Photoshop file (.PSD or .TIF) you might want to create a temporary copy so you have the option to revert to the original should that be necessary.

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Mar 15, 2023 13:39:07   #
DICK32
 
burkphoto wrote:
1) No

2) No, because original raw files are NOT EDITABLE. By definition, the data is what came off the sensor. It is permanently locked as what it is. You can change the formula for the OUTPUT from that data, but then to view or use that conversion, the raw data must be de-mosaiced and decoded and processed by software. That is what happens when you OPEN the file in ACR (Adobe Camera Raw, which is the Develop module in Lightroom Classic or the ACR filter in Photoshop.)

3) You should always have a backup of your files, in case a drive becomes corrupted or there's a fire or flood or other disaster.

When editing in Lightroom Classic, you are saving ONLY data *about* your original data, plus a small proxy of that converted, edited data. The original file, regardless of file type, is left intact. When you export, print, display as a slide show, paginate as a book, or upload to the web, you are getting a COPY of the original file, WITH CHANGES APPLIED.

In Photoshop, you WILL change any other kind of file other than raw when you save it on top of itself. Raw files are "Save As..." (a different file type) only.

The very conversion of raw camera data to any other file type limits it to the parameters of that conversion. This is why Photoshop offers different bit depths and wide gamut color spaces. It helps you preserve as much of the original data as possible, during the conversion.

Raw file — What the camera recorded, with minimal processing (Raw files include a JPEG preview processed with the menu settings of the camera.)

.PSD and 16-Bit TIFF, in ProPhoto RGB color space — very reasonable conversion choices when working from raw files in Photoshop

16-bit TIFF in Adobe RGB — requested by SOME professional publishers, offset printers, boutique (high end) gicleé printers so they can adjust your files to look best on their equipment, with the least amount of damage

8-bit JPEG in sRGB — used by most professional color labs using silver halide photo paper (Kodak or Fujifilm papers exposed on laser or LED printers and processed in RA-4 or equivalent chemistry) PLUS, used by most of the entire Internet world, on office monitors, by most amateurs, etc.

JPEGs made in the camera "can" be adjusted with post-processing software. However, the best "JPEG capture" workflows rely on controlled lighting, extremely accurate exposure and white balance techniques, and careful setting of the camera menu controls for the JPEG processor. That way, little or no adjustment is required. Set the camera to use the largest possible JPEG pixel dimensions with the highest possible quality/least compression/largest file size. When post processing, use Lightroom Classic so only ONE JPEG save is performed — on export, print, post, paginate, or display.

To "corrupt" a file means to damage a file in such a way that it either cannot be opened, or the contents of the file are partly unusable. Opening and saving a JPEG on top of itself does not corrupt it. It MAY throw away enough data to show noticeable quality loss (jaggies, flat color, ridging in gradient areas, mosquito noise, and other artifacts). That is file degradation, not corruption.

In the pro lab world I used to work in, we set rules that:

> We always worked on COPIES of customer data.

> We would never open and save a JPEG file on top of itself more than twice (and only once in most cases). Save #1 was a color/brightness correction. Save #2 was after portrait retouching or other work in Photoshop.

> We would always save the largest JPEG with the least compression.

This discipline worked fine. When we needed more malleable files, we converted 8-bit JPEG in sRGB to 16-bit .PSD or TIFF in ProPhoto RGB, did our complex edits, then saved back to 12-quality or "100"-quality JPEG at 8-bits and sRGB color. This preserved maximum quality with maximum flexibility for multiple saves during adjustments.

I know that is more than you asked for, but hope that it broadens your understanding of why you have the options you do.
1) No br br 2) No, because original raw files are... (show quote)


Burkphoto: Thanks for this concise explanation of how to process photos. This DOES make it easier to understand how and why to process photos.

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Mar 15, 2023 21:01:15   #
BobHartung Loc: Bettendorf, IA
 
JD750 wrote:
Your questions have been answered regarding raw files, but please remember that Photoshop is a destructive editor.

When you save a file and close it from PS you can’t go back and reopen the file and un-do those changes.

So if you are re-editing a Photoshop file (.PSD or .TIF) you might want to create a temporary copy so you have the option to revert to the original should that be necessary.


Are you assuming that the original RAW file is not saved?

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Mar 15, 2023 21:07:07   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
BobHartung wrote:
Are you assuming that the original RAW file is not saved?


Lightroom saves the steps used to edit an image. Photoshop saves the steps during editing but when you close photoshop your history is lost.

It is possible to save the history from photoshop in a separate file but I am not aware of a method to use it to reproduce an image. If that is possible then photoshop can be used in a nondestructive manner (but it takes action during the initial editing).

If you use separate adjustment layers that’s as close as you can get to nondestructive editing.

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Mar 15, 2023 21:45:19   #
BobHartung Loc: Bettendorf, IA
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
Lightroom saves the steps used to edit an image. Photoshop saves the steps during editing but when you close photoshop your history is lost.

It is possible to save the history from photoshop in a separate file but I am not aware of a method to use it to reproduce an image. If that is possible then photoshop can be used in a nondestructive manner (but it takes action during the initial editing).

If you use separate adjustment layers that’s as close as you can get to nondestructive editing.
Lightroom saves the steps used to edit an image. P... (show quote)


Personally, I rarely have to go back more than 3-4 steps in the history panel. I always have my layers available as I never flatten an image. I do not worry about the loss of the history panel if I close.

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Mar 15, 2023 22:05:48   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
BobHartung wrote:
Personally, I rarely have to go back more than 3-4 steps in the history panel. I always have my layers available as I never flatten an image. I do not worry about the loss of the history panel if I close.

Agreed. I don't think losing the history with a save and close is that big an issue and I wouldn't use that as a reason to identify an editor as destructive. If you properly follow a layered workflow in PS or Affinity and save the file retaining all layers then you can certainly re-open that file and continue where you left off including making changes to the previously saved work (layers).

PS and AP become destructive in a raw workflow when you want to for example return to the raw processing, make a change in what you did there and expect that change to update through the rest of your editing. Both PS and AP have addressed that concern to their credit and have a partially effective solution: In PS when passing an image from either LR or ACR pass a Smart Object and that will allow you to revisit the raw processing. The Smart Object will update any change. Unfortunately not all the work done in PS will likewise update (some will some won't). In AP when passing an image from the Develop module to AP proper you can pass a link to the raw file and you get similar functionality to a PS Smart Object but also the same partial solution.

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