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It is the final result not the process that is important
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Jan 6, 2022 15:18:33   #
Curmudgeon Loc: SE Arizona
 
I think that some of our members forget how long it took them to reach their current level of of expertise. In my case when I first started with my Argus C3 well over half of my Kodachrome slides went directly from the light table to the trash can. Most of them I can never replace. I envy people who can start their photography with digital cameras and home computer post processing.

Using PP to salvage what "our experts" would delete need not inhibit the learning process. We get better through repetition if we learn from our mistakes. Some of the shots we take today with our digital cameras fit the "can't be replaced" category and now, through PP, we can at least save them in a form that allows us to recreate the memory. Occasionally we actually, through PP, create photos that challenge the best the experts display.

The issue of whether or not to post pictures, here or elsewhere, that don't meet the quality criteria of "the experts" is an entirely different issue. I think all of us post the best we have to offer and if the reviewers are willing to make honest comments in a manner that is not degrading or snarky, I at least, evaluate the comments and use them where applicable to improve both my picture taking and Post Processing techniques.

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Jan 6, 2022 15:20:27   #
Blaster34 Loc: Florida Treasure Coast
 
Curmudgeon wrote:
I think that some of our members forget how long it took them to reach their current level of of expertise. In my case when I first started with my Argus C3 well over half of my Kodachrome slides went directly from the light table to the trash can. Most of them I can never replace. I envy people who can start their photography with digital cameras and home computer post processing.

Using PP to salvage what "our experts" would delete need not inhibit the learning process. We get better through repetition if we learn from our mistakes. Some of the shots we take today with our digital cameras fit the "can't be replaced" category and now, through PP, we can at least save them in a form that allows us to recreate the memory. Occasionally we actually, through PP, create photos that challenge the best the experts display.

The issue of whether or not to post pictures, here or elsewhere, that don't meet the quality criteria of "the experts" is an entirely different issue. I think all of us post the best we have to offer and if the reviewers are willing to make honest comments in a manner that is not degrading or snarky, I at least, evaluate the comments and use them where applicable to improve both my picture taking and Post Processing techniques.
I think that some of our members forget how long i... (show quote)


Well said...

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Jan 6, 2022 15:37:39   #
Quixdraw Loc: American Free States - Montana
 
I won't disagree with you my friend, but your title is painfully close to "any means to an end". Implicit in that is that the process has no value in itself and only the outcome matters. A subjective choice, and a valid one on either side of the issue. I value the process, continue to try and improve technique as I have in every field of interest to me for a great many decades. The new tools are certainly valuable and can be a saving grace. If I can get the job done well without them, I am gratified.

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Jan 6, 2022 15:44:17   #
Manglesphoto Loc: 70 miles south of St.Louis
 
Curmudgeon wrote:
I think that some of our members forget how long it took them to reach their current level of of expertise. In my case when I first started with my Argus C3 well over half of my Kodachrome slides went directly from the light table to the trash can. Most of them I can never replace. I envy people who can start their photography with digital cameras and home computer post processing.

Using PP to salvage what "our experts" would delete need not inhibit the learning process. We get better through repetition if we learn from our mistakes. Some of the shots we take today with our digital cameras fit the "can't be replaced" category and now, through PP, we can at least save them in a form that allows us to recreate the memory. Occasionally we actually, through PP, create photos that challenge the best the experts display.

The issue of whether or not to post pictures, here or elsewhere, that don't meet the quality criteria of "the experts" is an entirely different issue. I think all of us post the best we have to offer and if the reviewers are willing to make honest comments in a manner that is not degrading or snarky, I at least, evaluate the comments and use them where applicable to improve both my picture taking and Post Processing techniques.
I think that some of our members forget how long i... (show quote)



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Jan 6, 2022 15:57:48   #
Hereford Loc: Palm Coast, FL
 
I pretty much agree with you. Good PP certainly enhances a mediocre photo or makes a good one more better. Seldom do lighting, moving scenes, bus windows, etc make for perfect photos. Most can use some help.

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Jan 6, 2022 16:00:48   #
Curmudgeon Loc: SE Arizona
 
Quixdraw wrote:
I won't disagree with you my friend, but your title is painfully close to "any means to an end". Implicit in that is that the process has no value in itself and only the outcome matters. A subjective choice, and a valid one on either side of the issue. I value the process, continue to try and improve technique as I have in every field of interest to me for a great many decades. The new tools are certainly valuable and can be a saving grace. If I can get the job done well without them, I am gratified.
I won't disagree with you my friend, but your titl... (show quote)


Interesting comment. I almost titled it "The Ends Justify the Means". I feel that all photos are an "instant in time" never to be repeated. I take the best shot I can given the circumstances and use my best PP skills as necessary. Many, if not most, of the shots will be like pictures in my photo albums taken with a Brownie and printed at Parr's Drug Store. They are memories only seen by me and people who they mean something to. Quality is totally important, memories generated is everything.

As far as the necessity for PP I shoot in RAW so some processing is necessary but in my case also, as little as necessary unless I am playing with the picture.

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Jan 6, 2022 16:01:31   #
Curmudgeon Loc: SE Arizona
 
Manglesphoto wrote:



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Jan 6, 2022 16:02:14   #
Curmudgeon Loc: SE Arizona
 
Hereford wrote:
I pretty much agree with you. Good PP certainly enhances a mediocre photo or makes a good one more better. Seldom do lighting, moving scenes, bus windows, etc make for perfect photos. Most can use some help.


Thanks for taking the time to comment Hereford

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Jan 6, 2022 16:04:30   #
PhotogHobbyist Loc: Bradford, PA
 
Quixdraw wrote:
I won't disagree with you my friend, but your title is painfully close to "any means to an end". Implicit in that is that the process has no value in itself and only the outcome matters. A subjective choice, and a valid one on either side of the issue. I value the process, continue to try and improve technique as I have in every field of interest to me for a great many decades. The new tools are certainly valuable and can be a saving grace. If I can get the job done well without them, I am gratified.
I won't disagree with you my friend, but your titl... (show quote)


I am in agreement with the OP because I believe he was indicating that by pp one can improve their final product, but at the same time think of how the photo could be improved in camera to lessen the pp. Also, comments and critiques can show additional processes, in post and/or in camera, that may improve the SOOC images.

As many here have said, photography is a constantly progressing with more to learn every day vocation or avocation. The advancements of cameras and the apps for pp are changing almost minute by minute. Add in the new and interesting methods that photographers use to make their images, and it is an even more amazing and wonderful hobby/profession. I look forward to learning it more every day

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Jan 6, 2022 16:06:22   #
Curmudgeon Loc: SE Arizona
 
PhotogHobbyist wrote:
I am in agreement with the OP because I believe he was indicating that by pp one can improve their final product, but at the same time think of how the photo could be improved in camera to lessen the pp. Also, comments and critiques can show additional processes, in post and/or in camera, that may improve the SOOC images.

As many here have said, photography is a constantly progressing with more to learn every day vocation or avocation. The advancements of cameras and the apps for pp are changing almost minute by minute. Add in the new and interesting methods that photographers use to make their images, and it is an even more amazing and wonderful hobby/profession. I look forward to learning it more every day
I am in agreement with the OP because I believe he... (show quote)


Thanks for responding

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Jan 6, 2022 18:23:51   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Quixdraw wrote:
I won't disagree with you my friend, but your title is painfully close to "any means to an end". Implicit in that is that the process has no value in itself and only the outcome matters. A subjective choice, and a valid one on either side of the issue. I value the process, continue to try and improve technique as I have in every field of interest to me for a great many decades. The new tools are certainly valuable and can be a saving grace. If I can get the job done well without them, I am gratified.
I won't disagree with you my friend, but your titl... (show quote)


👍👍 Very thoughtful response.

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Jan 6, 2022 19:12:57   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
"Processing" has been part and parcel of photography long before digital imaging was invented. In terms of high-quality photography in most fields of specialization or style, films and prints had to be PROCESSED to convert the latent image on the film to a visible silver image on a negative. Prints had to be made where required. Nothing, withte the exception of Polaroid prints, came straight out of the camera and if you want t pick a nit, there was a chemical process involved in that as well. I'm sure that most folks around here understand all of this but it is worth mentioning.

Other than working with transparency films that were intended for "slides" or lithographic reproduction, no matter what kind of style of work was done, good darkroom manipulation skills in negative production and print-making were always an intrinsic part of traditional film photography. With the advent of digital photography, it seems to me that terminology has been borrowed for the motion picture industry so darkroom works were replaced by "editing and post-production a.k.a.post processing. Some folks seem to have adopted the notion that post-processing is optional after though or a patch-up job for faulty images- perhaps is for sloppy shooters or folks who have no background in good old custom printing. Custom printing, in my opinion, was not a process to resurrect poorly crafted negative from the garbage can but a method of maximizing the information on a good negative. And so it is with a good digital file. You shot as accurately and artistically as you can and bring your images to fruition on your computer by means of your software and most importanlyt your skills in applying it.

A bit of dodging or burning-in, cropping, and making some fine adjustment to composition is not cheating or fooling anyone. Years ago you had to stock many kinds of film and paper to achieve the contrast, colour palette or saturation and range that you wanted to achieve. Now you can do all that with a few convenient slider controls and your skills.

I can assure y'all that I have had ample and long experience with SOOTC shooting. Back in the early 1960s, 3-D (Stereo) slide became popular in the New York City metropolitan area for wedding coverages. I had to learn to shoo 35mm Kodachrome 25 with electronic flash on candid and formal shots- no bracketing, no reshoots and no TTL or auto exposure. Later in life, I shot thousands of large format transparencies for commercial layouts. I had to make readings, use all kinds of filter packs, run polaroid tests, do bracketing so the pre-press colour separation guys wod have a choice of densities. Frankly- a giant pain in the backside- no fun! It was ok for static subjects, products, still life shots, architectural work- not great data a baseball game, a prizefighter, or a fast-moving event.

When you do photography for a living, you learn very quickly that at the end of the day, it is indeed the FINAL RESULTS that count and not how you got there. If the client is a photography enthusiast they may ask you about your equipment or your software, etc., but most folks that I deal with, even art directors, advertising account executives, purchasing agents, and small business operators are just interested in good images on time.

So, whether is am shooting for clients or just for myself, I simply do what I need to do to get the final image I set out to make. from a business and production efficiency point of view, I never wanted to "re-Shoot" every image in the darkroom, nor did I want to reshoot ever fil on the computer. Sloppy shooting and gross overprocessing will usually yield poorly crafted work. Ain't nobody perfect and I am far from perfect so I try not to mess up and bugger up shots, but when I do, it's good to know I can clean things up in post. When that happens I do lots of cussing, lots of remedial work, and learn my lessons!

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Jan 6, 2022 20:21:36   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
If your photos are not good enough, get better at using the <Delete> key.

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Jan 6, 2022 20:36:23   #
Quixdraw Loc: American Free States - Montana
 
Physician heal thyself.

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Jan 6, 2022 21:19:45   #
Curmudgeon Loc: SE Arizona
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
If your photos are not good enough, get better at using the <Delete> key.


Wow I must have touched a nerve--I've got you using one liners instead of giving your rational response to the post

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