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Boeing and MCAS
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Oct 11, 2021 15:49:35   #
Hamltnblue Loc: Springfield PA
 
The root problem is that designs in aircraft and half of other things these days have gotten to the point that no one knows the basics.
We have a ton of pilots that know how to run the computerized systems but don’t know how to fly without them.
If pilots were trained properly, the first step during an emergency would be to turn off the automation and fly the plane until it was figured out.

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Oct 11, 2021 16:29:00   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
Red6 wrote:
This is really a fairly complicated issue. I am not a Boeing apologist as they should have emphasized the MCAS more in their documentation and training. The training for use of the MCAS is similar to the training for the failure mode of runaway trim, a failure that is routinely trained for by airline crews. This is where the electrical trim system for the aircraft elevators fails and excessively trims the aircraft to either climb or dive uncontrollably. Usually, the fix is to pull the circuit breaker for the trim system, powering it down, so the aircraft can be properly trimmed manually.

Since the MCAS system is basically a trim system operated by the computer to trim the aircraft to avoid dangerous aircraft attitudes in certain flight regimes, it also has a circuit breaker and can be disabled at any time in flight by that means. The failure modes of runaway trim and MCAS are very similar with the aircraft elevators being incorrectly deflected. Had either of the crews in the crashes treated this as a runaway trim emergency the accidents may not have occurred.

Boeing's biggest fault was their failure to emphasize this training and have a single point failure mechanism in the MCAS angle of attack sensor feeding the air data computer. The FAA also shares some of the responsibility since they were aware of the MCAS system and apparently agreed with Boeing's decisions regarding the system and its operation.

I am not sure how they can blame the test pilot as they usually work for and report to an engineering executive manager who reviews the flight test data and either approves of or disagrees with the results. Unless the test pilot was falsifying these reports I am not sure how he could be held responsible.

But then, as we have often seen, in our legal system anyone can be sued for anything.
This is really a fairly complicated issue. I am n... (show quote)

There is a saying ithat all pilots know, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Notice aviate comes first. FLY the Airplane. But commercial pilots today dont really fly the plane. The computer does. The only thing that todays airline pilot does is take off. The computers do the flying. And with autoland the don't even have to land. AS a result they must log time in simulators to polish flying skills. So when things dont respond the way the should they should think of turning off the computers and FLY THE PLANE. That's one of the reason that "sully" (miracle on the Hudson pilot) was able to save all those passengers. He knew how To FLY THE PLANE.

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Oct 11, 2021 20:38:34   #
Murray Loc: New Westminster
 
Hamltnblue wrote:
The root problem is that designs in aircraft and half of other things these days have gotten to the point that no one knows the basics.
We have a ton of pilots that know how to run the computerized systems but don’t know how to fly without them.
If pilots were trained properly, the first step during an emergency would be to turn off the automation and fly the plane until it was figured out.



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Oct 11, 2021 22:32:50   #
Stan Gould Loc: La Crosse, Wisconsin
 
robertperry wrote:
This might be a little off subject, is there a website to read about causes of specific aircraft crashes? I'm looking for official findings, not some pilots opinion about what happened. A friend of mine was on a plane that over shot the runway, skidded off into the ocean. Fortunately no injuries. She talked to me about it since I worked on aircraft engines in the military.


Yes. Go online to NTSB.org (National Transportation Safety Board.) Look for Office of Aviation Safety. You can search for accidents by month/data and other criteria.

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Oct 12, 2021 10:15:39   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
robertperry wrote:
This might be a little off subject, is there a website to read about causes of specific aircraft crashes? I'm looking for official findings, not some pilots opinion about what happened. A friend of mine was on a plane that over shot the runway, skidded off into the ocean. Fortunately no injuries. She talked to me about it since I worked on aircraft engines in the military.


Lots of details on YouTube - The Flight Channel, Mayday: Air Disaster, Disaster Breakdown, Mentour Pilot, Mini Air Crash Investigation

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Oct 12, 2021 15:42:04   #
Amielee Loc: Eastern Washington State
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Training pilots would cost airlines money.

Blaming the test pilot got corporate Boeing off the hook. Maybe the test pilot designed MCAS himself and sneaked it into the plane without Boeing knowing about it. When big corporations are involved, they and the government make their own rules. No matter what kind of disaster takes place and how many people are killed, corporations seldom suffer any penalties, and certainly not the people running those corporations. If anyone takes the heat, it's a secretary or a low level supervisor.
Training pilots would cost airlines money. br br ... (show quote)

The test pilot stated in an e-Mail that he could be in trouble with the FAA. For failure to report a problem with the aircraft and that is the basis of the charge. See aircraft pubs.

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Oct 12, 2021 21:43:09   #
robertperry Loc: Sacramento, Ca.
 
Stan Gould wrote:
Yes. Go online to NTSB.org (National Transportation Safety Board.) Look for Office of Aviation Safety. You can search for accidents by month/data and other criteria.


Thanks for the info Stan.

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Oct 12, 2021 21:45:35   #
robertperry Loc: Sacramento, Ca.
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Lots of details on YouTube - The Flight Channel, Mayday: Air Disaster, Disaster Breakdown, Mentour Pilot, Mini Air Crash Investigation


Thanks Jerry, I do watch most of these you mention.

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Oct 13, 2021 08:01:23   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
Amielee wrote:
The test pilot stated in an e-Mail that he could be in trouble with the FAA. For failure to report a problem with the aircraft and that is the basis of the charge. See aircraft pubs.


Yes, the pilot should be prosecuted for the stupidity of some of his emails, claiming he used Jedi mind tricks to fool the investigators. He was fooling them about changes that Boeing made to the plane.

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Oct 13, 2021 09:21:34   #
sb Loc: Florida's East Coast
 
The Smithsonian Network series "Mayday" which examines in detail the analysis of airplane crashes is a fascinating and impressive series. It is amazing the lengths the NTSB and other organizations go to try to determine the cause of a crash. They had one episode on the MCAS system crashes. Boeing ASSUMED that pilots would figure out that the trim was being adjusted automatically and deactivate the system within 3 seconds. But the pilots were not advised about the MCAS system. The plane that crashed in the ocean off Indonesia had experienced uncontrolled nose-down pitch on the previous flight - the MCAS was deactivated in time but it did take the pilots over three minutes to figure that out. For some reason the plane was not taken out of service and with the next flight the pilots did not figure it out in time to prevent the crash. The crash in Ethiopia, I think was the second one - it was a month or two later and the pilots were aware of the potential for automatic trim adjustments to push the nose down - but this happened very shortly after take-off, and there was no time to save the plane.

It is a great show if you like engineering and failure analysis detective work. Not a good show if you are already afraid of flying, but they emphasize that what they find out often triggers actions that make flying safer.

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Oct 13, 2021 10:17:38   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
sb wrote:
The Smithsonian Network series "Mayday" ...

It is a great show if you like engineering and failure analysis detective work. Not a good show if you are already afraid of flying, but they emphasize that what they find out often triggers actions that make flying safer.


Yes! I like seeing the details and technology behind crashes. What gets me is how they often make changes after a crash, when they should have made the changes before the crash. If people did their jobs right - from design to maintenance to flying - there might be one crash every century. There's plenty of blame to go around.

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Oct 13, 2021 11:16:09   #
Dave H2
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Interesting development in the Boeing MCAS mess. The chief prosecutor in the Boeing case worked out a deal where Boeing would get off the hook for the two crashes that killed 346 people. Shortly after this decision, she left the Justice Department and joined Boeing's law firm. Now, if Boeing is sued again, they'll have an experienced lawyer to defend them. Still, someone had to be held accountable, so they're prosecuting the test pilot.

In case MCAS doesn't sound familiar, it's "secret" software that Boeing installed in the 737 Max so pilots wouldn't have to be retrained to fly this new variation of the 737. The Airbus A320 is serious competition for the 737, so in making the Max, Boeing didn't want to tell potential customers that pilot training would be required. Instead, they added MCAS, a software enhancement that would compensate for the changes made with the introduction is this new variant with its more powerful engines. Unfortunately, with the pilots not knowing there was software flying the plane, two of them crashed, and the 737 Max was grounded for twenty months.

There's lots of information available about this online.
Interesting development in the Boeing MCAS mess. ... (show quote)


One of the problems with airline pilots today is that they are "computer game players", not real aviators. Many don't know how to hand fly an aircraft. If the foreign pilots who were flying during the accidents had dumped the mcas or other control electronics, then hand flew the plane until positive control was re-established, they would likely not have killed themselves and their passengers.
D

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Oct 13, 2021 12:52:24   #
Lucian Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio
 
robertperry wrote:
This might be a little off subject, is there a website to read about causes of specific aircraft crashes? I'm looking for official findings, not some pilots opinion about what happened. A friend of mine was on a plane that over shot the runway, skidded off into the ocean. Fortunately no injuries. She talked to me about it since I worked on aircraft engines in the military.


Search under NTSB and you should find lots of things. In the UK we have a dedicated place that we get our reports from for each year. It shows all the details, the weather, pilots experience and other related info about the pilot. The aircraft and what the results showed and how it might have been avoided.

As a pilot it is always something to read up on, because someone else's misfortune could help you over come a situation, one day in the future. Virtually no aircraft crash is a result of one thing going wrong. When you look through the entire scenario, you generally find a chain of events that lead up to a crash. Remove any one link in that chain and it is likely that the crash would not have happened. For most crashes, well over 70%, it boils down to pilot error.

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Oct 13, 2021 12:57:51   #
Canonuser Loc: UK and South Africa
 
I think if you said that to my grandson and his wife who are both pilots, they’d hang you out to dry.
They regularly tell me of occasions when things have become tricky and manual flying has become necessary.
In heavy rain they always manually land the aircraft so that auto systems can’t ‘grease’ the plane down and allow it to aqua plane off the runway. Aqua planing seems to have caused a recent 737 crash when the plane skidded off the runway.

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