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Home Generator Plan
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Sep 15, 2021 07:21:25   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
Walkabout08 wrote:
A bit less than a year ago I started to seriously undertake a whole house propane generator. We live in the woods and are subject to frequent power outages, generally 8-24 hours, on rare occasions several days. It then occurred to me that a lithium battery pack a la Tesla’s would be wiser and greener and less maintenance hassle. Fast forward 10 months and tomorrow I’m getting the foundation for a tracking solar array with a 13.5 kwh backup battery installed. No more electric bills and if it generates the electricity it’s supposed to I will ditch my AC compressors and the oil burner and install high efficiency electric heat pumps. I’m also exploring if/how I can use my ev vehicle battery in the event the new in-house battery runs out and the sun refuses to shine. An extreme case of project scope creep!
A bit less than a year ago I started to seriously ... (show quote)


Let us know how this turns out. I know several people with heat pumps, and they love the system. If I was younger, I'd go for a system like yours.

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Sep 15, 2021 07:25:42   #
yssirk123 Loc: New Jersey
 
Eve since Hurricane Sandy, power outages in NJ have been more frequent. For years I wheeled a portable generator outside and refilled it with gas when needed. We finally bought a Generac whole house generator that runs everything in our home without the need for selecting which appliances it can power, and it was well worth the investment.

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Sep 15, 2021 08:18:43   #
jaymatt Loc: Alexandria, Indiana
 
I have a Generac (connected to my 1000 gallon propane tank) that’s large enough to run everything in the house (3000 sq ft), except I can’t run the oven and the dryer at the same time (big loss). It kicks in after 30 seconds of no power. I live in the country, so if the power really goes out, it is going to be out for a while. It has “saved” us a number of times--one of the best purchases I have ever made.

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Sep 15, 2021 08:46:45   #
JRiepe Loc: Southern Illinois
 
I have a whole home generator that runs on natural gas, kicks on automatically and the total cost was around $8,800. It will provides all my electrical needs when the power goes out. Was it a smart investment? No. But does every dollar spent need to be a wise decision? No. Just like paying yearly for insurance that you never use on a car or house it gives you piece of mind. Several years back some in my area went without electricity for a month and more because of a major ice storm.

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Sep 15, 2021 09:10:21   #
Canisdirus
 
For residential homes...solar is the way to go...either roof or portable solar cells. The new lithium batteries are amazing.

We had a hurricane move through our neighborhood about 10 years ago. No power for 18 days.
Me, I don't use anything...I have a hand pump for water and natural gas for my stove.
My neighbor has a generator (about $5k to purchase).
He could not believe his gas bill after a few weeks...which left him wondering if paying thousands in natural gas to keep his fridge running was a smart move.

My wife wanted a generator. So I bought one. Heh...never hooked it up. It sits covered in one of my sheds...and will never be hooked up. But my wife wanted one and we have it...technically. Eventually my wife realized it was a heck of a lot to run and maintain.

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Sep 15, 2021 09:47:41   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
Canisdirus wrote:
For residential homes...solar is the way to go...either roof or portable solar cells. The new lithium batteries are amazing...


Solar is great if your house gets sun or you have a sunny spot in the yard. I'm kind of in the woods.

Canisdirus wrote:
...left him wondering if paying thousands in natural gas to keep his fridge running was a smart move.


That will depend on just what you keep in your refrigerator. It shouldn't cost that much. A refrigerator doesn't use THAT much power. The "thousands" must include all the other electrical things that the generator is running.

If you're talking off-grid, you can get gas refrigerators, both natural gas and propane.

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Sep 15, 2021 09:51:52   #
davidrb Loc: Half way there on the 45th Parallel
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
Not cost effective.

Also, most home generators are a hassle to set up to power your home. If you have an automatic t***sfer switch the installation cost is significantly higher. And you will have to reset all the electronic clocks twice a day or give up using them to tell time. Not to mention all the other electronic things that will have to be reset.

A whole house generator that will power your A/C and electric oven/stovetop will set you back much more than $5K (depending on the size of your house). For my house it would be $15-20K. Electric heat? Forget it.

Don’t forget to factor in maintenance on your generator.

I would estimate that your annual cost could easily exceed $3K.
Not cost effective. br br Also, most home generat... (show quote)


I purchased a generator 10 years ago, one of the smartest things I ever did. In rural America power companies take their responsibilities very lightly, as evidenced by "singing wires.". We used to experience power outages simply because the wind blew. Our "provider" had a long list of excuses. During a 7 day period of darkness my neighbors were basically house guests here using my bathing facilities. Things have improved because the citizenry refused to put up with incompetent utilities. That, and a mandate to BURY wires has resulted in much fewer outages. But, my generator is still the oasis in the desert and comes in very handy when the power dies, and die it does.. Most new homes in our area have standby generators built into them. BIG utility business is just TOO unreliable to trust. They sing their loud songs of self-praise, until the lights go out. NEVER rely on power supply companies.

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Sep 15, 2021 09:54:54   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
The last place I lived, the local power utility had an aggressive program of tree trimming to protect their wires. It worked well and we had few power outages, and those we had were fairly short lived. But it's going to depend on how far into the woods your house is located.

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Sep 15, 2021 10:07:21   #
Canisdirus
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
That will depend on just what you keep in your refrigerator. It shouldn't cost that much. A refrigerator doesn't use THAT much power. The "thousands" must include all the other electrical things that the generator is running.

If you're talking off-grid, you can get gas refrigerators, both natural gas and propane.


Yeah, but once you have a generator...and the t***sfer switch..and the breaker panel...you aren't just going to run the fridge.
It depends on how much value you place on electricity.

My neighbor can only run his house for 6 days with his natural gas tank. Then he gets a whopping big bill to fill it up again. Let's not even bother to compare what you would be paying per kilowatt hour on a generator...the costs are through the roof. Of course during a natural disaster...supply of gas gets limited...and more expensive.
And the natural gas truck still has to be able to get to your driveway...not always possible.

It's one of those items that seems like a great idea...until you have to depend on it.
Don't get me wrong...it will work...but you will pay through the nose for that convenience...and the noise...oh boy...the noise.

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Sep 15, 2021 10:55:10   #
Mustanger Loc: Grants Pass, Oregon USA
 
TriX wrote:
Jerry’s power company has to size the distribution system for peak, not base load, so if they can get enough homeowners to handle the peak load, they can use a lower rated distribution system. Now whether it’s worth it to the consumer is highly doubtful. A whole house generator is nice to have if you live in an area with regular outages, but you really need natural gas (propane is expensive and you may not be able to store enough for extended use in addition to your heat). Also, switching the mains for the entire house rather than just 5-6 circuits requires an expensive t***sfer switch plus you’ll really need to run your computer, router, etc on a UPS so they don’t die during the switchover. They are very convenient, but not cheap - typically 5-6K.

Since we have very infrequent outages (an occasional hurricane or ice storm), I have a portable 6KW generator with a natural gas conversion kit so it will run on natural gas, propane or gasoline. Since I have natural gas, I don’t need to store gasoline which is a major PIA as I did in the past. The kit is about $225-250 and really makes an emergency generator painless. I simply pull the main breaker, plug it into an outdoor 230V outlet (which I installed for that purpose), and it will run everything except the A/C. Total cost - about $800 including the conversion kit.

One thing to be aware of. Most modern gas furnaces use a PC board for control rather than simple relays, and many systems use the same controller board. The catch is that the controller is very sensitive to the AC line frequency which must be in the 59-61 Hz range or it won’t start. If your generator doesn’t use a frequency controlled inverter, its frequency varies with the engine speed, which even with the speed governor, changes with load. So... if you need your generator to run your furnace in an emergency, better test it before you need it to make sure the frequency is stable enough to start your furnace.
Jerry’s power company has to size the distribution... (show quote)


Be aware, unless you have made alterations to prevent this just plugging in a portable generator into a 230v AC outlet to power your house creates a hazard for the power company employees! Even with the Main Breaker thrown off there can be power feedback to the main line which may under some circumstances expose them to full voltage/amperage! Hooking up like that is against code & may be illegal I'm not sure in all states. That is why an approved T***sfer Switch is so essential!

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Sep 15, 2021 11:02:47   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Mustanger wrote:
Be aware, unless you have made alterations to prevent this just plugging in a portable generator into a 230v AC outlet to power your house creates a hazard for the power company employees! Even with the Main Breaker thrown off there can be power feedback to the main line which may under some circumstances expose them to full voltage/amperage! Hooking up like that is against code & may be illegal I'm not sure in all states.


If you pull the Mains (200 Amp fuses in my case), there is COMPLETE isolation from the grid and ZERO chance of backfeeding into it. There is no magic pathway between your house and the local t***sformer (pole pig) but the drop to your house which after the meter, goes directly to the main breaker or fuses.

But for the non electrically savvy, just plug your electrical devices/lights directly into the generator and forget attaching it to the house wiring because the Main breaker/fuses MUST be open BEFORE the generator is attached and the generator MUST be disconnected before restoring the mains. If you don’t know what you’re doing and aren’t VERY careful with the sequence, just forget hooking your portable generator directly to your home wiring, both for your safety and the linemen working to restore your power.

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Sep 15, 2021 11:14:53   #
Mustanger Loc: Grants Pass, Oregon USA
 
The Neutral line is not broken by throwing the main switch & it is also grounded to the house grounding system which does create a pathway for current to backfeed! You have to pull the entire Meter to open everything. As I said under the right circumstances it is very hazardous! YOU NEED A T***SFER SWITCH! Call your power company and ask if you can just plug in a portable generator...

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Sep 15, 2021 11:22:28   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Mustanger wrote:
The Neutral line is not broken by throwing the main switch & it is also grounded to the house grounding system which does create a pathway for current to backfeed! You have to pull the entire Meter to open everything. As I said under the right circumstances it is very hazardous! YOU NEED A T***SFER SWITCH! Call your power company and ask if you can just plug in a portable generator...


The neutral is bonded to earth ground both at the t***sformer and at the meter base or panel. there is NO path for current flow without TWO conductors. There is ZERO voltage on the neutral referenced to anything, including earth ground. (Being a EE and having designed power distribution systems professionally at one point in my career, I don’t need to check with the power company for advice). BTW, t***sfer switches may or may not switch the neutral depending on whether the generator has neutral bonded to ground (the NEC does not allow the neutral to be bonded to ground twice at the service point.)

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Sep 15, 2021 11:49:51   #
Canisdirus
 
The purpose of the t***sfer switch is in its name...to make a SAFE t***sfer between grid power and gen/solar power.
I don't know anyone who could pass an inspection without one.

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Sep 15, 2021 11:58:35   #
Effate Loc: El Dorado Hills, Ca.
 
cedymock wrote:
Your electric company must be vastly different from mine (peak demand are specific times of day).
Peak times for my area;
November 1st to March 31st / 6:00 am to 9:00 am
April 1st to October 31st / 4:00 pm to 7:00 pm

Cost per kWh off peak $ 0.0550
Cost per kWh on peak $ 12.141
I have never used more than 6 hours a month peak time ( most times below 4 hours ).
Last month off peak energy charge 1,182 kWh $ 65.01
Last month On Peak charge 4.147 kWh $ 50.34


Ha, don’t come to California where Pacific Gas and Electric charge more than double your rate at peak and still shut off power to customers in fire danger areas and the State grid shuts off power during peak due to mandating a high portion of our power be renewable before their ability to deliver the same.

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