forensics7 Loc: Davidson, NC

I am looking to see if anyone has had any issues with a private club telling someone they couldn't take photos of children or be on "their property". In this case, a soccer club has been using the RPB Memorial Park here for various games. At the invite of my neighbor to take photos of his son playing, I did so and have done at least 10 games at this same site. I ran into a guy this week, maybe British who may not know the privacy/legal laws regarding public photography and he said I can't take photos of kids on their teams. I have searched all the sites on Internet and find parks, town land is public and any photos can be taken. I understand the issue of posting on Internet etc but they were just for my neighbor.
Anyway, I plan to go back and do another game but want to be sure the soccer club doesn't lease or control the land ( soccer fields) in any way. The guy on the field running the tournament was fine and probably didn't know but his boss, President or CEO of club threatened to call the police, which I should have called him on but decided to have all my ducks in a row before returning. This guy was also foreign, I say that only because of the possibility he doesn't know privacy and photography issues.
I plan to call the Town Rec center and the local police to verify its public land. Another friend who has been a photographer for many years, said he has never had a problem. Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

Did you tell the guy that father wanted you to take pictures of his son playing??
Check with the town, do they own the park? What are their rules if any?

forensics7 Loc: Davidson, NC

Thank you. Yes, I am double checking on who actually owns the land/park. Yes- the parents gave me permission and one was there.

Quixdraw Loc: x

I recall a lengthy thread on this subject in the past. Might be worth a search of the archives.

goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl

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forensics

I am going to respond to you but, first let me say I live in Florida, I do not know the laws of the location of where you're at.

I am a former member of a law enforcement agency who served for 30 plus years with a sheriff's office in the state of Florida.

The only thing that would interfere with your operation is the owner of the property, not public laws. If I was called to the scene at that location, and there was no owner on the property, I would listen to the story of both sides until the man complaining against you, I would refuse to take any action if that man is on public property. Law enforcement cannot enforce any civil regulations or rules with regard to civil ownership of property. Law enforcement can only enforce the laws of their local territory.

If the owner of the property was there or his truly designated agent, the owner of that property could request that you leave the property for whatever reason they would like to site. It is at that point, and only at that point, if and when you should decide that you do not want to leave the property, that you might be charged criminally with trespass on private property after given a proper Warning by the owner or the approved agent.

There are no federal laws that regulate or prohibit taking any kind of photographs of any individual on public property. Yes, photographs might not be usable from a commercial standpoint but on public property, no one can stop you from taking photographs and that includes photographs of military installations or government installations as long as you're standing in a public place where that location then be singing and is located in the view of the public. The Supreme Court has ruled on this... under the 1st amendment.

Now, I would like to remind you that all of the above is said with the fact that this is what pertains to Florida. I do not know what state you're in and that may be different

By the way, the same applies to Federal and national parks. Photographs for personal use cannot be prohibited but, Federal and national properties and lands can regulate the use of that property for commercial use (civil liability). Therein lies the rub. The definition of what they think is commercial. For example, if Sally takes out her iPhone and takes a picture as opposed to Uncle Harry who is a novice and have tons of money, and decides he wants to take out his $40,000 Hasselblad will the 600-millimeter lens and the park ranger defines him as a professional on a commercial job.

In closing, my disclaimer, everybody here has a different opinion, they should all be respected, and it doesn't hurt to listen to everyone.

Cheers
George Veazey
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goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl

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forensics7

May I say one more thing... and respond to your question of if the property was being under "Lease" by a club or group..... and do they have the right to remove you...

The answer to that is "What is written in the four corners of the agreement" and what authority the landowner has extended to the lessee... and with that, I was on the scene, it would be a tough "call" without actually seeing the lease document... and THEN, I don't even know if the document is, in fact, valid...

So, what I would say... "Law Enforcement does NOT enforce legal documents unless ordered or issued by a sitting judge.

Hope that help

Cheers
George Veazey
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Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

So even if someone's opinion really is in error (based on erroneous information), they should still be respected for propagating bad information because it's their opinion???

I guess we must be nice at any cost?
(Thinking, for example, of all the people that say an SDHC adapter card for a micro-SD adds delay to writing and reading to/from the card.)

forensics7 Loc: Davidson, NC

George,

Thanks so much for the detailed reply and all good info to know. I am also 30 years retired federal officer so I want to do what is right so I am researching to see who owns the land/park. I am guessing the town and would be surprised to see if they leased or designated the land to the soccer club but who knows. I am new to my photography business since retiring a 2nd time last year so I want to make sure about all the legal issues. I plan to contact the town and town rec department to see what the stipulation is for the soccer club if any. I am also contacting the local PD in case they have a legal expert or someone who knows about this since I know most of them and trained many. I realize that if I pushed it the first time and stayed I would most likely know the officer and explain I am not selling or posting these and believe it is public land but decided to do more research first. I would be surprised the soccer club has any legal paper regarding the land but who knows. I just want to make sure if I have a right to be there and take photos that they don't abuse their power and tell someone to leave.

I was aware of national parks and of course certain places that have restrictions on public property so I am learning about all the legal stuff too in addition to my camera's and shutter speed..LOL.

We are in Davidson and Huntersville NC so I am fairly sure about the state laws and requirements about privacy and photos. I think most states are similar although I read NJ and Georgia want to have laws to ban all photos of children. Maybe they didn't think about city and business surveillance camera's but I think Georgia amended it to only include sex offenders.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts.
Dale Callan

goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl

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I'm sorry but, I believe the word respect is not equal with the word ~ agree~

I can believe that other people are wrong, and even if they are wrong, I can share my opinion and my position... and still be polite... if the other individual chooses to continue what they wish to do, as long as it doesn't interfere with me, I respect their ability to be wrong. Decisions have consequences. Bad decisions have consequences but, I can respect you, and walk away from you.

In Closing, respect does not equal approval..

Hermie the word respect means being polite.

That's my belief, and I respect anything you wish to say.

Cheers
George Veazey

goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl

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Dale

It might not be a bad idea to take a few minutes on one day and Drive by The Local District police office and have a chat with somebody on duty at the desk. Make yourself known, introduce yourself and explain that you want to do the right...

Having said that, when you go back out the next time, don't hesitate, immediately call for an officer to respond to the scene. And have the position put in a public forum so that the ending is proper..

Yes you're right about the individual probably being European. Two years ago, when I was in France, I encountered a very similar situation and, of course that was in France. I have no ground to stand on so I had to back off.

Now we here, in the USA, you have the benefit of knowing ahead of time, you have the benefit of talking to the locals ahead of time and you have the benefit of summonsing the local authorities to stand between you and the other individual and set the situation right.

And ultimately that is the point. If it is right, you need to be able to do what you have the right to do in the ability to do without being bullied into doing what somebody else wants to do.

I do wish you all the best

Cheers
George Veazey

LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY

You might ask that club official if he has any idea how many times he and all those kids are photographed everyday. Security cameras, video doorbells, dash cams, traffic cams. There are even satellite photos with enough resolution to pick out nude sunbathers. No permission is needed to mount a camera covering the street in front of a store or on a house across from a playground. No permission is needed to photograph anything visible from public access property or anyplace else you can legally be. Conspiracy theorists, and others, have been photographing our most secure military installations for decades. Area 51, for example. As long as they stay on the public property surrounding the installation they can take all the photos and video they want.

goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl

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LFingar]

I fully agree with your assessment and everything you have said is true but, in some instances, no amount of logic and no amount of facts will change the opinion of some Europeans. They have a different opinion and a different view on things and I have seen it firsthand in Paris France.

Europeans have a whole different mentality with regards to what they consider personal rights.

That's why I suggest, without a doubt at the very first onset, have the law enforcement officer whose on patrol respond and, put the European individual in his place with regards to laws dealing with public Photography in the United States

Cheers
George Veazey

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

Agreed.
There's been so much nicey-nicey, flowers, butterflies and unicorns going around everywhere lately though.

David Martin Loc: Cary, NC

Perhaps the problem is an adult taking pictures of other kids, whose parents did not give permission?

I agree completely with consulting local law enforcement. I think you should also consult the soccer league which may have rules prohibiting photographing children.

I understand your motives to be honest and sincere. However, as a parent, I would not feel comfortable with a stranger taking pictures of my children who is neither a parent of one of the players nor a hired professional photographer.

goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl

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