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Crop factor affects maximum F/stop?
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May 2, 2021 03:34:04   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
TriX wrote:
First flashlights and now pizzas? How about instead you actually use the definition (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-number) and consider the concept that the luminance per area does not change. Better yet, perform the experiment I suggested. Have you actually tried using the same lens on a two different format cameras with the same exposure settings and compared the images? I actually have (using the same lightmeter measurements and exposure settings), and I KNOW the answer even if I didn’t believe the definition. You should try it.
First flashlights and now pizzas? How about instea... (show quote)


The flash light & the pizza is the same. It's the same principle just looking at it in reverse.
Its using analogy to express an idea. Using something more familiar to explain something else.

One thing we can not escape in photography is that everything is related to something else. f-stop, pixel size, sensor size ad infinitum. A change in any one part will always affect the balance with the others.

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May 2, 2021 05:29:36   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
flyboy61 wrote:
Educate me, please! I was just reading some information on the Tamron 90mm f/2.8 Macro lens that I am thinking of buying, in which someone stated that on a DX camera, the effective field of view with a FX lens, would be ~ a 135mm equivalent, but the crop factor would also affect the f/stop, raising it to f/4.2.

Not saying this isn't true, but it is the first time I have heard that, and it doesn't seem correct to me. Despite the narrower field of view, the distance from the front element of the lens to the sensor doesn't change, and the light has no further to travel than before, so the f/stop should remain the same. (?)

Next, and I admit this is something I have never given much thought to, but lenses with internal focus do not change their physical length, therefore light has no further to travel from the lens' front element to the sensor, which I understand is the reason for non-internal focus macro F/2.8 lenses to have an actual rating of ~ f/4 at 1:1 distances, when their lens barrels are extended "waaay out yonder".

That's the reason my 70-300mm non-IF zoom is placarded at F4.5-5.6, and my 70-200 I F zoom is a fixed F/4 throughout their zoom ranges. So, providing my understanding is correct, there should need to be no "adjustment" of the f/stop at close focus distances for Internal Focus lenses. Or?
Educate me, please! I was just reading some inform... (show quote)


Fstop is affected only if you factor in depth of field when comparing crop and full frame sensors. If you want to keep the same DoF AND angle of view, then you have to increase the subject to camera distance when using same focal length on the crop camera, which will increase the depth of field. For the same depth of field you'd have to have a larger aperture on the crop camera or a smaller aperture on the full frame camera.

But the amount of light is determined by the aperture and not the focal length, ie a 100mm lens used at F8 on a full frame camera will still let the same amount of light onto a crop sensor.

Non internal focus lenses will cause the camera meter to adjust accordingly as you come in close. Zooms that shrink the maximum aperture as you increase focal length do so as a compromise between overall size and weight vs focal length. Your 70-300mm lens would be considerably bigger and heavier if it were to maintain F4.5 throughout its zoom range.

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May 2, 2021 05:43:12   #
User ID
 
Wallen wrote:
Do you have one of those flashlights that can zoom? The one in which you can adjust the light to be bigger or smaller in diameter? That can explain you dilema.
The flashlight throws out the same amount of light. Make the diameter small and it becomes bright. Make it big and it become dull.
In a camera lens, if everything stays the same except for the sensor size, if you view that in their natural state, there would not be any change in brightness in the image. you only get a cropped photo.

But if you print the image from the smaller sensor, to equal the bigger sensor, then your print will appear as if it was taken in a darker situation in comparison. Just like the small light from the torch spreading out to a bigger diameter.
In photography., we see the change as a higher f stop number equivalent.

The smaller sensor size is getting the same amount of light, but it is being distributed to a higher density smaller pixel wells. Much like a pizza sliced to share with 50 people (apsc) and 25 people (full frame). Its the same pizza, but they will not get the same size of slice. The 50 people will get a smaller bread to bite.
Do you have one of those flashlights that can zoom... (show quote)

Boolschidt !!! You mix fact with fiction.

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May 2, 2021 06:04:33   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Wallen wrote:
Do you have one of those flashlights that can zoom? The one in which you can adjust the light to be bigger or smaller in diameter? That can explain you dilema.
The flashlight throws out the same amount of light. Make the diameter small and it becomes bright. Make it big and it become dull.
In a camera lens, if everything stays the same except for the sensor size, if you view that in their natural state, there would not be any change in brightness in the image. you only get a cropped photo.

But if you print the image from the smaller sensor, to equal the bigger sensor, then your print will appear as if it was taken in a darker situation in comparison. Just like the small light from the torch spreading out to a bigger diameter.
In photography., we see the change as a higher f stop number equivalent.

The smaller sensor size is getting the same amount of light, but it is being distributed to a higher density smaller pixel wells. Much like a pizza sliced to share with 50 people (apsc) and 25 people (full frame). Its the same pizza, but they will not get the same size of slice. The 50 people will get a smaller bread to bite.
Do you have one of those flashlights that can zoom... (show quote)


There is a fault in this logic, which has to do with the fact that an f2.8 lens will require the same exposure whether it is shot on a crop sensor or FF sensor. The depth of field will remain the same. Only the angle of view changes. In terms of an enlarger needing more exposure due to moving the light source, this has nada to do with the negative.

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May 2, 2021 06:12:29   #
User ID
 
There is a legitimate “f/stop equivalency” effect that is likely to be the root of such misinformation. When you change format scale, there is a DOF recalculation that is rationally described in f/stops of EFFECT. But it affects only effective DOF and does NOT affect the true f/stop and therefore does NOT affect exposure.

It’s true that for lenses of the same angle of view (like a 17 on m4/3 and a 35 on FF) that the 2X “crop factor also applies to the way DOF relates to f/stop.

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May 2, 2021 06:24:06   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
TriX wrote:
You are correct. An f2.8 is an f2.8 regardless of what format camera it’s used on. It’s the physical ratio of the focal length to the entrance pupil diameter and neither change regardless of what sensor the image is projected onto.

This debate surfaces periodically on UHH, and proponents of the idea that the f stop changes based on the sensor size refuse to believe otherwise despite the actual definition, the fact that the lens yields the same exposure on both FF and crop bodies, or the fact that light meters don’t have separate scales for various sensor sizes.
You are correct. An f2.8 is an f2.8 regardless of ... (show quote)



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May 2, 2021 06:28:35   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
TriX wrote:
Nope. With the flash light analogy, you’re actually changing the luminance per area by concentrating the light, but that’s not what happens with a camera lens. In that case, unlike the flashlight, whose illuminated area gets smaller, the projected area for the lens remains the same, but only a percentage is used to illuminate the sensor - the luminance per area does not change.

You can easily prove this to yourself by using the same lens on a crop and a FF camera at the same exposure settings, and the resulting image will be the same brightness. Or you can use a lightmeter, meter the same scene, set the same settings and expose that same image on two different format cameras (film or digital) and look at the resulting brightness/density and they will be the same if the shutters are accurately calibrated.
Nope. With the flash light analogy, you’re actuall... (show quote)



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May 2, 2021 06:48:43   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
Interesting discussion, clearly f/2.8 remains f/2.8 no matter if it is used on a full frame or a crop sensor, the one thing that I saw in this discussion is the effect a telescoping lens has on the light hitting the sensor. I have owned all of the Canon EF Macro lenses even though I have a larger Sigma Macro lens the only Canon that remains in my lens collection is the original EF 100mm f/2.8 simply because it is an all metal beast and I just wanted to keep that lens because to me it is a unique classic. I had never considered that as the lens telescopes out that in effect it is creating an extension tube behind the rear element which will indeed effect the amount of light hitting the sensor.

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May 2, 2021 06:50:04   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
User ID wrote:
There is a legitimate “f/stop equivalency” effect that is likely to be the root of such misinformation. When you change format scale, there is a DOF recalculation that is rationally described in f/stops of EFFECT. But it affects only effective DOF and does NOT affect the true f/stop and therefore does NOT affect exposure.

It’s true that for lenses of the same angle of view (like a 17 on m4/3 and a 35 on FF) that the 2X “crop factor also applies to the way DOF relates to f/stop.


Exactly! However, the way Tony Northrup characterizes this in his video lends additional credence to the old adage "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

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May 2, 2021 06:54:33   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
flyboy61 wrote:
Educate me, please! I was just reading some information on the Tamron 90mm f/2.8 Macro lens that I am thinking of buying, in which someone stated that on a DX camera, the effective field of view with a FX lens, would be ~ a 135mm equivalent, but the crop factor would also affect the f/stop, raising it to f/4.2.

Not saying this isn't true, but it is the first time I have heard that, and it doesn't seem correct to me. Despite the narrower field of view, the distance from the front element of the lens to the sensor doesn't change, and the light has no further to travel than before, so the f/stop should remain the same. (?)

Next, and I admit this is something I have never given much thought to, but lenses with internal focus do not change their physical length, therefore light has no further to travel from the lens' front element to the sensor, which I understand is the reason for non-internal focus macro F/2.8 lenses to have an actual rating of ~ f/4 at 1:1 distances, when their lens barrels are extended "waaay out yonder".

That's the reason my 70-300mm non-IF zoom is placarded at F4.5-5.6, and my 70-200 I F zoom is a fixed F/4 throughout their zoom ranges. So, providing my understanding is correct, there should need to be no "adjustment" of the f/stop at close focus distances for Internal Focus lenses. Or?
Educate me, please! I was just reading some inform... (show quote)


It will not effect the f stop, it will retain it's 2.8 speed. And, it will only use the middle of the lens, the sharpest part, it is a win win.

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May 2, 2021 07:02:30   #
ELNikkor
 
f2.8 by any other format is f2.8...

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May 2, 2021 07:22:52   #
User ID
 
Gene51 wrote:
Exactly! However, the way Tony Northrup characterizes this in his video lends additional credence to the old adage "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

As a person, perhaps TN is really a good person. As a thing, TN the smiley talking head is NOT a good thing.

The best thing about TN videos is that he sticks to photography. What if he were teaching you to fix your car’s brakes ?!?!

One day the boss handed me a story board involving flushing and bleeding brakes. We had a car cleaned up and ready. I scanned the story board and told him it was seriously flawed. It was from a huge multinational, possibly the hugest corporation on earth at the time.

I guess this incident made it to the client’s legal department, cuz the client chose to never market the product that would have involved instructing “Joe Consumer” on how to do a brake job.

Not all photographers are handy with machinery. Witness UHH. Lives could have been lost if that account had gone to a different agency.

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May 2, 2021 08:03:24   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
Before built in meters I used hand held Gossen and Pentax meters. My memory isn't the best, but I don't recall focal length being considered in determining correct exposure.

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May 2, 2021 08:21:25   #
DRM Loc: NC
 
Crop factor affects maximum aperture? No.

Crop factor affects (increases) depth of field at a given aperture versus same lens/same aperture on full frame? Yes. Perhaps this visual effect is why some think the effective aperture is being reduced by the smaller sensor.

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May 2, 2021 08:23:39   #
dave.speeking Loc: Brooklyn OH
 
Using the pizza analogy, I substituted baloney and ate the pizza.

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