Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Focal Length and Perspective.
Page <prev 2 of 5 next> last>>
Apr 6, 2021 08:08:32   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
Leitz wrote:
Over the years I have observed more explanations than questions about perspective. However, I've had little to do with inexperienced photographers, which may be why I've not seen much misunderstanding.


Were you not, long ago, an inexperienced photographer - full time?

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 08:29:00   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Leitz wrote:
Over the years I have observed more explanations than questions about perspective.....


Whenever there's questions there's a need for good explanations. Maybe the reason why it's a recurring question is because there's been a lack of good explanations.

You seem to be suggesting that there's something inappropriate about me offering my own version of an explanation. If the subject is boring you or doesn't hold any interest for you, find another thread.

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 09:05:19   #
fuminous Loc: Luling, LA... for now...
 
Ah, if only we still had a resident gas bag with dubious credentials to argue and explain with circles and arrows how changing focal length changes perspective... and what fools are those that think otherwise.

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2021 09:27:02   #
Leitz Loc: Solms
 
R.G. wrote:
Whenever there's questions there's a need for good explanations. Maybe the reason why it's a recurring question is because there's been a lack of good explanations.

You seem to be suggesting that there's something inappropriate about me offering my own version of an explanation. If the subject is boring you or doesn't hold any interest for you, find another thread.

In fact, I find providing answers in search of a question to be quite amusing!

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 09:37:23   #
JBRIII
 
This probably is not directly on target, but a good example of how a lens can alter things, perspective?, use a fish eye lens for a photo of a room. We once checked out a condo in CO shot this way. Entire open area was shown, but real dimensions were nothing like photo made them appear.

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 09:37:54   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Leitz wrote:
In fact, I find providing answers in search of a question to be quite amusing!


If you think that's what's happening in this thread, you're wrong. And if you think there aren't misunderstandings to be cleared up, you're wrong.

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 09:47:27   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
JBRIII wrote:
.....real dimensions were nothing like photo made them appear.


That misleading impression was down to a single phenomenon. It was because of how much the wide angle lens was showing you. If you take lens distortion out of the equation you will be able to crop down to any part of those photos and you would see that they are geometrically correct. Lenses like that mess with our perception of distance but they don't affect perspective. They are, however, prone to distortion.

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2021 09:49:38   #
Thomas902 Loc: Washington DC
 
R.G. I actually truly enjoyed your eloquent dissertation on “Focal Length and Perspective”… A rather interesting reflection on an oft misunderstood quandary especially by those who do not have a background (or academic training) in the “Art of Illustration” I’m certain the graduates of the Edinburgh College of Art “Get This”

Below are examples of my journey into “Focal Length and Perspective” in long hallways, one of my favs!
The first is at 16mm FL i.e. the wide end of spectrum using “Vanishing Point Perspective” a ploy and oft used tool of the masters of antiquity… the second is the use of “Focal Length Compression” with a 450mm FL in a series for an agency model’s portfolio. In both scenarios the “Hallway” length is virtually identical (I paced both hallways).

We as photographers (like the master painters of centuries ago) are restricted to working in a two dimensional space a.k.a. and X and Y axis… However in the real world the Z axis of the Cartesian coordinate system comes into play. There in lays the paradox… R.G. I encourage you to study the art and craft of “Optical Illusion”. Possibly then I trust you may gain yet another formidable tool for your craft.

Again many thanks R.G. and all the best on your epic journey.
.

Hallway at 16mm FL
Hallway at 16mm FL...
(Download)

Hallway at 450mm FL
Hallway at 450mm FL...
(Download)

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 09:56:08   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
Thomas902 wrote:
R.G. I actually truly enjoyed your eloquent dissertation on “Focal Length and Perspective”… A rather interesting reflection on an oft misunderstood quandary especially by those who do not have a background (or academic training) in the “Art of Illustration” I’m certain the graduates of the Edinburgh College of Art “Get This”

Below are examples of my journey into “Focal Length and Perspective” in long hallways, one of my favs!
The first is at 16mm FL i.e. the wide end of spectrum using “Vanishing Point Perspective” a ploy oft used tool of the masters of antiquity… the second is the use of “Focal Length Compression” with a 450mm FL in a series for an agency model’s portfolio. In both scenarios the “Hallway” length is virtually identical (I paced both hallways).

We as photographers (like the master painters of centuries ago) are restricted to working in a two dimensional space a.k.a. and X and Y axis… However in the real world the Z axis of the Cartesian coordinate system comes into play. There in lays the paradox… R.G. I encourage you to study the art and craft of “Optical Illusion”. Possibly then I trust you may gain yet another formidable tool for your craft.

Again many thanks R.G. and all the best on your epic journey.
.
R.G. I actually truly enjoyed your eloquent disser... (show quote)


There is nothing like a beautiful woman running Fine shooting

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 10:04:29   #
User ID
 
R.G. wrote:
Part of the problem with this subject is the undefined use of the term "perspective". In a purely geometric sense it can be shown that if your position doesn't change, the relative placement of the various objects in your field of view - and your perception of them - doesn't change. It's a simple fact of geometry. Focal length is not a factor.

What focal length does affect is the field of view. As the focal length of a lens increases it has a magnifying effect on what you're seeing (due to the field of view becoming narrower). That magnification affects the perception of distance - including relative distance (and therefore depth) - and the resulting compression effect is often described as a change of perspective - but it's just a narrowing of the area of our attention. That can be proved easily by taking a shot that was captured using a wide angle lens and cropping it to give the same framing as a shot taken with a telephoto lens from the same spot. Apart from a difference in resolution (due to the cropping), they will be exactly the same.

Where our eyes are concerned, you can think of them as behaving like a very wide angle lens with a very small sweet spot. Within the sweet spot the focus, detail perception (resolution), contrast and colour perception are all good, and the further out from the sweet spot you go the worse they all become. At the periphery of our vision our eyes are still capable of detecting movement, large objects and areas of high contrast but almost nothing in the way of fine detail, and provide us with very little colour information.

Where human perception is concerned, another factor that comes into play is our attention. We can change the focus of our attention by changing the direction of our gaze, and in addition to that we can also focus our attention at will within any given field of view (a fixed field of view is what a fixed gaze gives us). The sweet spot is large enough to give us the visual information (the detail, colour, contrast, depth perception etc) that we need when we want to focus our attention on specific areas of interest.

In the case of photographs we want the freedom to choose where within the frame the areas of interest occur, so cameras have to be capable of providing a high level of visual information throughout the frame. Put another way, the sweet spot needs to cover the entire frame (the entire field of view). In reality the very edges of the frame aren't as important as the centre, so where lens design is concerned, the edges of the field of view aren't as critical as the centre, but lenses still get criticised if the edges are soft in any way.

PERSPECTIVE.

So what about the perspective provided by our eyes? To reiterate, focal length affects the field of view but it doesn't affect perspective. What does affect perspective is position. Provided your position doesn't change, the perspective that you get using a short focal length (a wide angle lens) is the same as what you get with longer focal lengths.

One implication of those points is that the human eye doesn't have a unique perspective based on its focal length. The only thing that changes the perspective that we see with our eyes is our position - which changes every time we move. If you want a camera to give you the same perspective that your eyes do, you need only to stand in the same position to take the photograph - focal length is irrelevant.

PERCEPTION.

The sweet spot of our eyes (as described above) corresponds roughly to the area of interest that we get when we focus our attention, which apparently is covered by an angle of view of roughly 40° - 60°. For a full frame (FF) camera, that corresponds roughly to the angle of view provided by a lens with a focal length of ~43mm. So in terms of human perception, a 45mm FF lens will cover the area that corresponds (approximately) to the area of our focused interest, and that in turn corresponds (approximately) to the sweet spot of human eyes (which is only a small part of the wider field of view provided by our eyes).

Put another way, a 45mm FF lens gives us a condensation of what we see with our eyes by isolating the area that we normally focus on and excluding the wider context provided by our peripheral vision.

However, excluding context may not be the photographer's intention, and if his/her intention is to focus the viewer's attention, that can be achieved by other means, the main one being framing. In that context, focal length will often be irrelevant. In addition to that, lenses are usually designed to provide a sweet spot that covers the entire field of view, and that in turn allows areas of interest to be placed anywhere within the frame. In that context, focal length is irrelevant.

Where the perception of distance (and depth) within a photograph is concerned, much depends on how the photograph is viewed. The main relevant factors are the size of the display (the monitor, print or whatever) and the viewing distance. And where the photograph itself is concerned, the degree of cropping is a factor. All of these factors are independent of focal length.

It can be seen from these points that a 45mm (FF equivalent) focal length has very limited significance in photography. However, one of the main things that focal length does do is convey a sense of what the photographer's viewpoint was at the time of capture. The photographer's viewpoint is shared with the viewer, and in that context, the choice of focal length determines the starting point. Bearing in mind that the angle of view can be changed by cropping, we can say that in very general terms a wide angle of view (a short focal length) will give the viewer the impression that they are distanced from the captured scene (or the action), and as the angle of view becomes narrower (as the focal length increases) the viewer is given the impression that they are being brought closer into the scene or closer to the action.

In that context a 45mm FF lens will be good at conveying the sense that the viewer is seeing what they would be seeing if they were standing at a realistic distance from the scene or the action. The relevance of that point will depend very much on circumstance.
Part of the problem with this subject is the undef... (show quote)

Title is wrong so it’s not worth reading a post that is waaaaaay too long. IOW I barely skimmed it.

I notice the remark that perspective is not easy to define. If true, so what ? The real problem is the title and therefore the theme of your question.

There is NO connection between FL and perspective ... regardless of how one defines perspective.

Perspective is governed ONLY by distance. FL affects ONLY field of view.
You have made a huuuuuge post that goes nowhere.

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 10:17:52   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Thomas902 wrote:
R.G. I actually truly enjoyed your eloquent dissertation on “Focal Length and Perspective”… A rather interesting reflection on an oft misunderstood quandary especially by those who do not have a background (or academic training) in the “Art of Illustration” I’m certain the graduates of the Edinburgh College of Art “Get This”

Below are examples of my journey into “Focal Length and Perspective” in long hallways, one of my favs!
The first is at 16mm FL i.e. the wide end of spectrum using “Vanishing Point Perspective” a ploy and oft used tool of the masters of antiquity… the second is the use of “Focal Length Compression” with a 450mm FL in a series for an agency model’s portfolio. In both scenarios the “Hallway” length is virtually identical (I paced both hallways).

We as photographers (like the master painters of centuries ago) are restricted to working in a two dimensional space a.k.a. and X and Y axis… However in the real world the Z axis of the Cartesian coordinate system comes into play. There in lays the paradox… R.G. I encourage you to study the art and craft of “Optical Illusion”. Possibly then I trust you may gain yet another formidable tool for your craft.

Again many thanks R.G. and all the best on your epic journey.
.
R.G. I actually truly enjoyed your eloquent disser... (show quote)


Thank you Thomas. Glad you enjoyed. We hear much about the compression effect of telephoto lenses but nothing about the opposite - the extension effect of wide angle lenses (not in those terms anyway). I wonder if it would be fair to say that a FL of 43mm on a FF camera represents the crossover point from compression to extension. It's a very gradual shift, so there's much room for arguing the case of various focal lengths in that range.

Thanks for posting your cool examples. I have used zoom in the past to bring the background closer in some of my landscape shots. At the time I wouldn't have used the term "compression" - I'd probably have described it in terms of getting the framing that I wanted. Sometimes with landscape shots you have to choose a specific section of the background and then use an appropriate mixture of zoom and positioning to get the foreground and mid-field into proper alignment. In that situation it's appropriate to refer to perspective because it does involve finding the right position to take the shot from.

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2021 10:36:24   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
User ID wrote:
Title is wrong so it’s not worth reading a post that is waaaaaay too long. IOW I barely skimmed it.

I notice the remark that perspective is not easy to define. If true, so what ? The real problem is the title and therefore the theme of your question.

There is NO connection between FL and perspective ... regardless of how one defines perspective.

Perspective is governed ONLY by distance. FL affects ONLY field of view.
You have made a huuuuuge post that goes nowhere.


Apparently your skimming was so minimal that you are largely ignorant of the contents. If it's too much bother to base your comments on an actual knowledge of the contents, feel free to just keep going and find other threads to spend time with.

For a start, I didn't say that perspective was difficult to define - I said the problem was the undefined use of that term. Apart from that, the whole thread is a discussion about perspective and perception. The fact that perspective is governed only by distance (it's actually more accurate to say "position") is a recurring theme throughout the thread.

I'll repeat my suggestion that you find threads more to your liking (or threads that you can at least be bothered to read before you pass comment on them).

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 11:51:22   #
User ID
 
R.G. wrote:
Apparently your skimming was so minimal that you are largely ignorant of the contents. If it's too much bother to base your comments on an actual knowledge of the contents, feel free to just keep going and find other threads to spend time with.

For a start, I didn't say that perspective was difficult to define - I said the problem was the undefined use of that term. Apart from that, the whole thread is a discussion about perspective and perception. The fact that perspective is governed only by distance (it's actually more accurate to say "position") is a recurring theme throughout the thread.

I'll repeat my suggestion that you find threads more to your liking (or threads that you can at least be bothered to read before you pass comment on them).
Apparently your skimming was so minimal that you a... (show quote)


I refer you back to your thread title.

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 12:12:33   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
User ID wrote:
I refer you back to your thread title.


I refer you back to the contents of the thread.

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 13:09:53   #
Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb
 
Perspective is in the eye of the picture taker (photographer). The adjustment is in his control of his equipment and location (adjustments). All the details are mechanics.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 5 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.