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Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS)
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Apr 1, 2021 07:45:55   #
Ron 717 Loc: Pennsylvania
 
akamerica wrote:
I am trying to solve my leadership "problems:"
I have on my computer drives - primary and backup - just over 65,000 pictures digitized from slides, prints, and progressive Nikon cameras to my current D850. (This compendium includes my grade school graduation.)
Admittedly I am an amateur with expensive equipment.
Current subscriber with Adobe Bridge, Lightroom, and Photoshop.
To save coping space in my brain that is somewhat fragmented I avoid having to create an app managed Catalog (required by Adobe) that adds a additional layer of worry and management. No way I am going to import 65,000 pictures and hope for the best. I understand this is necessary to maintain a "sidecar?" with the non-destructive edits of my JPG and RAW pictures.
I have limited myself to Adobe Raw for 99.9% post process.
My file organization is simple i.e. 2021-03-31 Trooper Dog at the Doggie Beach.
Making "destructive" edits to my RAW pictures is not a problem and to me a positive as I know that is the way they will present when copy pasted or viewed off my computer without the bother of exporting.
I have but not yet gotten into: NX Studio; Helicon Focus; Luminar AI Topaz DeNoise AI all waiting on free time from my way too busy retired status. (The problem expands to fill the time available to solve it.)

So, kind fellows I seek your suggestions for an editing program that does not require a catalog, makes destructive edits, and has an easy to follow workflow, and a readable layout that does not require squinting.

Thanks in advance. Art in SW Florida
I am trying to solve my leadership "problems:... (show quote)


I would recommend that you take the time to watch a couple of LR use videos or take the time to understand completely how LR works and it’s cataloging system. Once understood and put into practice, there is not a better way of storing photos and having the ability to find a specific photograph using keywords within much less than a minute. Sure it takes a good bit of time to input keywords to the amount of photos that you have, but it does not have to be done at one sitting. Start by adding keywords to your photos as you import them and then as you search for past photos to work on, before closing them add keywords at that time.
I realize that some will disagree with me, and that is fine, I was a hard convert years ago when I started using keywords, and the more keywords you use per photo the better for finding later.

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Apr 1, 2021 08:13:13   #
akamerica
 
I plan to discontinue the subscription.

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Apr 1, 2021 08:49:06   #
Jimmy T Loc: Virginia
 
Gene51 wrote:
No such thing as destructive edits on raw files in raw converters. Even if you are editing a raster file (jpeg, psd, tiff, png), the original file is left intact, and only the exported file will have your new edits. In Lightroom, the raw and raster edits are stored in the catalog's preview database. Additionally you can set LR to store the edits in an xmp (sidecar) file. It is not automatic - by default the writing of metadata changes to xmp is not turned on.

The catalog is what sets LR apart from most other applications - it's implementation is flawless. The problem most people have with it is that it the try to approach it as if it were a file browser - like Bridge - which it is not.

Now, even creating a catalog and importing your existing images using the "Add" mode will leave all of your images in their current places, and only "add" them to the catalog. Therefore, as far as Bridge, ACR and anything else you want to use to edit your images - nothing has changed.

When you edit an image in LR, you are editing the preview image (or a copy of the raster image), you are not editing the original. If you are in LR and you have the subscription, when you use the Edit In command, it will create a duplicate raster image in the format of your choosing - and pass it along to Photoshop as a raster file AND add the raster file to the catalog. When you finish your editing of the raster file and save the changes in PS, the version of the raster file is updated in the catalog.

I know that by this point this all sounds daunting, but it really isn't.

My folder and file naming is a little more informative for those situations were I use other applications to edit the files.

I have a parent folder named Pics
Beneath it their is a list of folders that are organized by year.
Beneath each year there is a collection of folders that look like the following:

01.01 - small birds at the park - 01-05-21 This would be the folder name for the first time in January I took the camera out, what I shot, and the actual date. The first four numbers is an index of sorts that shows me the folder list for year in the sequence I took them.

Now, once you start using the LR catalog, you'll discover the one-to-many/many-to-one relationships you can set up with collections. I might have taken a picture of a Great Blue Heron on 1/5/21, but I have a virtual collection called waders, where I have all sorts of birds, including herons, egrets, cranes, storks etc. I have other collection of just herons, just egrets, just cranes, etc - so my GBH is part of the wader collection, but it is also part of the heron collection - without needing to create and manage any duplicate files.

These are just a couple of examples of how LR's catalog helps to organize things and ensure that you don't accidentally delete things.

If you decide to go down this path, keep one thing in mind. You are editing previews, not actual files, and these previews are based on where LR found them when it imported them. If you drop into Finder (on a Mac) or Windows Explorer and move things around, LR will not be able to find the moved/added/deleted files. So you'll need to update LR by opening the moved/deleted/added folder or folder containing the moved/deleted/added files, right click on the folder(s) or file(s) and select Find Missing Folder or Files - and everything will be back in sync.

You have absolutely nothing to worry about once you figure it out and start using it. Turn on automatically write changes to xmp in Catalog Settings (Ctrl+Alt+,), Metadata tab, so that if you decide to stop using LR for cataloging at least your raw file changes will be in the sidecar file. Changes to raster files will be in the duplicate created when you exported the raster file to disk.

If you don't have a headache after reading this you are a better person than I am. And I wrote it.
No such thing as destructive edits on raw files in... (show quote)


Thanks for sharing Gene!
JimmyT Sends
Bravo Zulu

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Apr 1, 2021 08:56:07   #
akamerica
 
Thank you for your detailed reply. I insert my thoughts.

Gene51 wrote:
No such thing as destructive edits on raw files in raw converters. Even if you are editing a raster file (jpeg, psd, tiff, png), the original file is left intact, and only the exported file will have your new edits. In Lightroom, the raw and raster edits are stored in the catalog's preview database. Additionally you can set LR to store the edits in an xmp (sidecar) file. It is not automatic - by default the writing of metadata changes to xmp is not turned on.

**When I make edits to an NEF in Adobe Camera Raw and click "Done" the picture is saved in the original location I assume with my edits intact. Now, if I go to that picture with Windows Explorer and do a copy paste say into aMS Office Publisher what happens to the edits?

The catalog is what sets LR apart from most other applications - it's implementation is flawless. The problem most people have with it is that it the try to approach it as if it were a file browser - like Bridge - which it is not.

**Flawless except for the human factor remembering to observing all of Adobe's proprietary requirements and adding a layer of unique steps and procedures when working with the files. Backup procedures, culling and extracting chosen files for other processes now all dependent of having and using Adobe.

Now, even creating a catalog and importing your existing images using the "Add" mode will leave all of your images in their current places, and only "add" them to the catalog. Therefore, as far as Bridge, ACR and anything else you want to use to edit your images - nothing has changed.

When you edit an image in LR, you are editing the preview image (or a copy of the raster image), you are not editing the original. If you are in LR and you have the subscription, when you use the Edit In command, it will create a duplicate raster image in the format of your choosing - and pass it along to Photoshop as a raster file AND add the raster file to the catalog. When you finish your editing of the raster file and save the changes in PS, the version of the raster file is updated in the catalog.

I know that by this point this all sounds daunting, but it really isn't.

**No sale. Saving this way or exporting that way and joy it is updated in the catalog. Why worry if it is a raster copy or just the preview. The catalog presents no enticement worthy of my commitment, hence my quest for KISS. I don't need to rate my pictures, establish relationships between pictures, identify the people in the pictures or document the place. So, what's the point of being attached to an Adobe catalog for me?

My folder and file naming is a little more informative for those situations were I use other applications to edit the files.

I have a parent folder named Pics
Beneath it their is a list of folders that are organized by year.
Beneath each year there is a collection of folders that look like the following:

01.01 - small birds at the park - 01-05-21 This would be the folder name for the first time in January I took the camera out, what I shot, and the actual date. The first four numbers is an index of sorts that shows me the folder list for year in the sequence I took them.

Now, once you start using the LR catalog, you'll discover the one-to-many/many-to-one relationships you can set up with collections. I might have taken a picture of a Great Blue Heron on 1/5/21, but I have a virtual collection called waders, where I have all sorts of birds, including herons, egrets, cranes, storks etc. I have other collection of just herons, just egrets, just cranes, etc - so my GBH is part of the wader collection, but it is also part of the heron collection - without needing to create and manage any duplicate files.

These are just a couple of examples of how LR's catalog helps to organize things and ensure that you don't accidentally delete things.

**A need I have not felt. Clearly a feature for a professional photographer. At my level finding all of Trooper Dog's pictures sorting his various activities for later recall - not my need.

**And then the Adobe Catalog gets complicated and error prone as the following illustrates.

If you decide to go down this path, keep one thing in mind. You are editing previews, not actual files, and these previews are based on where LR found them when it imported them. If you drop into Finder (on a Mac) or Windows Explorer and move things around, LR will not be able to find the moved/added/deleted files. So you'll need to update LR by opening the moved/deleted/added folder or folder containing the moved/deleted/added files, right click on the folder(s) or file(s) and select Find Missing Folder or Files - and everything will be back in sync.

You have absolutely nothing to worry about once you figure it out and start using it. Turn on automatically write changes to xmp in Catalog Settings (Ctrl+Alt+,), Metadata tab, so that if you decide to stop using LR for cataloging at least your raw file changes will be in the sidecar file. Changes to raster files will be in the duplicate created when you exported the raster file to disk.

**Great workarounds to untangle the complex catalog provided you did it right to begin with - oh and remember to post process your pictures.

If you don't have a headache after reading this you are a better person than I am. And I wrote it.
No such thing as destructive edits on raw files in... (show quote)


**Again Thank You kind sir for your reply and perfectly illustrating why this simple human does not "feel the burn."

Art

Reply
Apr 1, 2021 09:45:19   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
tcthome wrote:
.

If you don't have a headache after reading this you are a better person than I am. And I wrote it.


This would of taken me all day to type. Nice work.[/quote]

It was off the top of my aching head . . .

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Apr 1, 2021 09:45:59   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Jimmy T wrote:
Thanks for sharing Gene!
JimmyT Sends
Bravo Zulu



Reply
Apr 1, 2021 09:46:16   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
akamerica wrote:
Thank you for your detailed reply. I insert my thoughts.



**Again Thank You kind sir for your reply and perfectly illustrating why this simple human does not "feel the burn."

Art



Reply
 
 
Apr 1, 2021 09:52:43   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
akamerica wrote:
I plan to discontinue the subscription.


Too bad. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot if your goal is to simplify your digital image organization. All it takes is a little effort up front to wrap your head around the flawless logic of Lightroom's Catalog. When I first started using LR, I had been using (and still do) Capture One, which has awful image mgmt capabilities. I locked myself in my office with a nice Oregon Pinot Noir - and emerged hours later - with a new tool in my toolbox, and an almost empty bottle of wine. You may prefer a four pack of craft hazy IPA - or a single malt, or a single pot still unblended bourbon - the goal is to remain calm and just plow through it until you get it - and you will.

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Apr 1, 2021 10:03:49   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
akamerica wrote:
I am trying to solve my leadership "problems:"
I have on my computer drives - primary and backup - just over 65,000 pictures digitized from slides, prints, and progressive Nikon cameras to my current D850. (This compendium includes my grade school graduation.)
Admittedly I am an amateur with expensive equipment.
Current subscriber with Adobe Bridge, Lightroom, and Photoshop.
To save coping space in my brain that is somewhat fragmented I avoid having to create an app managed Catalog (required by Adobe) that adds a additional layer of worry and management. No way I am going to import 65,000 pictures and hope for the best. I understand this is necessary to maintain a "sidecar?" with the non-destructive edits of my JPG and RAW pictures.
I have limited myself to Adobe Raw for 99.9% post process.
My file organization is simple i.e. 2021-03-31 Trooper Dog at the Doggie Beach.
Making "destructive" edits to my RAW pictures is not a problem and to me a positive as I know that is the way they will present when copy pasted or viewed off my computer without the bother of exporting.
I have but not yet gotten into: NX Studio; Helicon Focus; Luminar AI Topaz DeNoise AI all waiting on free time from my way too busy retired status. (The problem expands to fill the time available to solve it.)

So, kind fellows I seek your suggestions for an editing program that does not require a catalog, makes destructive edits, and has an easy to follow workflow, and a readable layout that does not require squinting.

Thanks in advance. Art in SW Florida
I am trying to solve my leadership "problems:... (show quote)




for me, since you already have Adobe products, I can't wrap my head around why you would want to do away with it. It is the world leading cataloging editing system. But I won't try to talk you out of it, to each his own. Since you don't say which computer system you're using, I might assume that you using Windows since it's the biggest percentage use. If so as Bill or long Shadow set use Windows explorer and any free editor you want there's too many out there to choose from. On a second note you say you use Adobe roll that's an adobe product and it does work on raw images which by the way you cannot destruct unless you delete. Raw images are inherently indestructive. So... If you're using Windows just use Windows explorer and my suggestion is to try each editor till you find the one you like.

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Apr 1, 2021 10:06:53   #
gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast
 
I just don’t understand not using the Catalogue to organize and find your photos when you have something that powerful to do it. I use PS Elements and it’s Organizer data base is patterned after LR's. If you have an alternative, go for it.

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Apr 1, 2021 10:59:03   #
jayluber Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
What is the simple approach? Using the Adobe software in the intended methods these industrial-grade and market defining tools were created.

What violates a KISS approach? Subscribing to industrial-grade software and then seeking to work around all the best features of the tool.


Well said once again.

Reply
 
 
Apr 1, 2021 11:00:25   #
Tote1940 Loc: Dallas
 
Have over 250k still several hundred videos digitized from 8mm to digital video
Like you avoid catalog functions tried it was awfull
Keep a word Document like 250 pages with picture code and description for great grandchildren to decipher
AA- year NAA year 21st century
BB- shoot code
CC-strip frame or shoot number
M movies any kind
RAW filed as RAW copy

Hope they can decipher but would not trust software dependent cataloguer It will be difficult enough to find a way to read Jpeg

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Apr 1, 2021 11:15:21   #
fehutch Loc: gulfport, ms
 
65,000 is a lot - even by retired age. When I got to 2,000 - barely a dent on my passsport drive, I thought about what I would ever print and who would even bother with looking at them in the future.

My salvation came via the delete key. The first few were difficult then I got on a roll. Got to less than 1,000 in one week. An hour a day then think about it. Repeat daily.
Now I spend more time taking and keeping only the printables.
I wish you luck.
My advice: cull ruthlessly. Your images can only get better.

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Apr 1, 2021 11:25:45   #
Larry Maxon
 
I created subfolders by date taken for all my photos and arrange them by date taken.

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Apr 1, 2021 11:46:37   #
Bayou
 
Longshadow wrote:
I don't use a cataloger either.
Windows Explorer is my "catalog".




Same for my music collection as well. I find it a poor choice to rely on third party software to do what basic file managers already have the power to do. No eventual obsolescence worries, either.

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