Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Dr. TOPAZ to photography STAT!!
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Feb 22, 2021 13:46:44   #
sippyjug104 Loc: Missouri
 
I find sharpening in post to be like adding salt while cooking the meal. A little can make a great difference and too much can also make a great difference...but not in a good way.

The pleasing amount of sharpening is directly related to the distance viewed which unfortunately when viewed on a computer can be down to the pixel depth which has little value yet it is ever so often done. I also believe that sharpening is best applied when printing where it is not viewed down to the pixel depth where "strange things" and shapes can appear.

My belief is that nothing will ever be sharper than what the camera was able to capture. Sharpening software is manipulation which will always trade one thing for another.

Although sharpening does serve a purpose and it can add aesthetic value to an image that otherwise may not be noteworthy.

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Feb 22, 2021 14:03:12   #
jdmiles Loc: Texas
 
rmalarz wrote:
Personally, I prefer a bit more control over my processes than letting some AI take over.
--Bob


The big problem for me is that it takes a lot of time to go outside of PS to do the Topaz thing. I still use it some but I hope to wean off of it. Don't forget you can still do selective masking on the return trip. AI in Topaz is no better than that in cars. If you rely on it too much you are going to have a bad accident.

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Feb 22, 2021 14:21:05   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
I've been developing a process within Ps that sharpens incredibly well and additionally uses masks. That's how I got the results in this photo.
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-686491-1.html

Well, that along with meticulous exposure techniques.
--Bob
jdmiles wrote:
The big problem for me is that it takes a lot of time to go outside of PS to do the Topaz thing. I still use it some but I hope to wean off of it. Don't forget you can still do selective masking on the return trip. AI in Topaz is no better than that in cars. If you rely on it too much you are going to have a bad accident.

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Feb 22, 2021 14:28:32   #
Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY
 
Canisdirus wrote:
All of the programs mentioned let you do it manually.
They just give you one more option.
Usually, the results are very close to perfect...and why wouldn't they be?
It's a quick way to get to an optimal image if you want a realistic image that is.
If you want to go 'artistic'...then no.
But it can save you a lot of time.

I have done it both ways to the same images...and many times I end up manually where the 'AI' program ends up in a few seconds.
Sometimes not...but it still gets me a lot closer in less time without it.
All of the programs mentioned let you do it manual... (show quote)


I don't normally comment and/or get involved in discussions like this, but I disagree with you on this and your previous statements regarding AI and post processing...
Canisdirus wrote:
All digital post processing is AI.


Canisdirus wrote:
Just because you are moving a slider ... it's the computer doing the processing.
It's all AI. Besides... I use Topaz...Lightroom...Photoshop. They all can make auto correction...and they all can do manual. If you auto white balance...that's AI...technically.


Canisdirus wrote:
Yup. Anyone using a digital camera has already bought into AI.
No matter how sophisticated the software behind it all...some humans wrote the algorithms.
Topaz and Luminar give you the 'option' of doing it all auto.
But what is auto? It's simply algorithms set up by someone to find an optimal image.
I use it sometimes, and it can be a great time saver...a starting point.
If I spent the time to get close to where the AI is in a second after hitting the key...I'd lose quite a bit of time.
I look at what the program (written by a human) has done...then make some adjustments to my personal taste.

If you are processing just a few images...do it the long way... It's like a stenographer in court. Lots of information distilled down very quickly...but still what was said.
Yup. Anyone using a digital camera has already bo... (show quote)


Not all digital post processing is AI or totally controlled by AI. Maybe if all you do is use a specific "Sky AI" or other targeted area auto AI slider in a software such as Luminar AI and make an adjustment and do nothing else in your post processing. But when YOU decide to do a dodge and burn to a specific area of your photo or apply a brush to a specific area, it is YOU that is choosing how much dodging or burning, or how much brush strokes that is being applied to that specific area, not the software. YOU are in total control of the processing that is being done to your image, not the AI in the software, and definitely not the computer itself making those decisions.

Yes, the software has algorithms built into it that allow it to work, but it is YOU the user that is controlling how much of each adjustment that is being applied, be it exposure, contrast, adjusting white balance with a custom kelvin setting, adjusting highlights, shadows, applying a tone curve, etc., etc., etc. It is NOT the software AI or the computer itself doing the processing as you state... YOU are instructing the software that you are using on your computer to apply the settings and adjustments that you have chosen, not the computer making those decisions and applying them on its own. You are deciding what to tell the computer and software to do.

If you are shooting in Raw only, then you have not "bought into AI" as you suggest, because you are not using the straight out of the camera (SOOC) that the camera manufacturer has built in to the cameras processing software and applied to that jpeg image.

You can argue this till the cows come home if you want to, but it will not change the fact of the matter that unless you are ONLY using the built in AI of the software application that you are using, it is YOU, the user, that is controlling what post processing is being done to your image['s] using your software of choice, not the AI.

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Feb 22, 2021 14:29:13   #
jimmol
 
kymarto wrote:
Absolutely not. AI refers to the processing algorithms used achieve the results that you can control. All those fancy step names are just Topaz marketing, but the program itself achieves top quality sharpening, head and shoulders above anything else on the market.


I wish. Compared to Franzis Sharpen Projects 2, my usual sharpening program, Topaz was 3 times more expensive, 50 times bigger, and 50 times slower, but the results were no better. If the results had really been significantly better, I could have handled the purchase price and the disk space, but I saw no need for a lengthy test and the Topaz program went back.

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Feb 22, 2021 15:29:41   #
Canisdirus
 
Vince68 wrote:
Not all digital post processing is AI or totally controlled by AI. Maybe if all you do is use a specific "Sky AI" or other targeted area auto AI slider in a software such as Luminar AI and make an adjustment and do nothing else in your post processing. But when YOU decide to do a dodge and burn to a specific area of your photo or apply a brush to a specific area, it is YOU that is choosing how much dodging or burning, or how much brush strokes that is being applied to that specific area, not the software. YOU are in total control of the processing that is being done to your image, not the AI in the software, and definitely not the computer itself making those decisions.

Yes, the software has algorithms built into it that allow it to work, but it is YOU the user that is controlling how much of each adjustment that is being applied, be it exposure, contrast, adjusting white balance with a custom kelvin setting, adjusting highlights, shadows, applying a tone curve, etc., etc., etc. It is NOT the software AI or the computer itself doing the processing as you state... YOU are instructing the software that you are using on your computer to apply the settings and adjustments that you have chosen, not the computer making those decisions and applying them on its own. You are deciding what to tell the computer and software to do.

If you are shooting in Raw only, then you have not "bought into AI" as you suggest, because you are not using the straight out of the camera (SOOC) that the camera manufacturer has built in to the cameras processing software and applied to that jpeg image.

You can argue this till the cows come home if you want to, but it will not change the fact of the matter that unless you are ONLY using the built in AI of the software application that you are using, it is YOU, the user, that is controlling what post processing is being done to your image['s] using your software of choice, not the AI.
Not all digital post processing is AI or totally c... (show quote)


No matter how you process...you are still doing the manipulating...what I have said all along.
But anything digital is relying on AI in some form or another...on some level or another.
As for RAW..still using the processor of the camera...which technically is AI.

Tech is never going to reverse folks...and yes some folks decide what the line is for them...fine.
Don't use auto AI PP'ing...no one cares whether you do or not. I certainly don't.
Folks who look at your images won't care either. "Oh, you used AI...harumph"...never going to happen.
All folks care about is what the image looks like in the end.
I have never had anyone ask me (other than other photographers) how much PP I did.
No one cares.
And the tech is just going to keep going...

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Feb 22, 2021 15:49:33   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA
 
I suppose it depends on one's interpretation of AI.
(Compared to the norm.)

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Feb 22, 2021 16:26:19   #
sodapop Loc: Baltimore, MD
 
jimmol wrote:
I wish. Compared to Franzis Sharpen Projects 2, my usual sharpening program, Topaz was 3 times more expensive, 50 times bigger, and 50 times slower, but the results were no better. If the results had really been significantly better, I could have handled the purchase price and the disk space, but I saw no need for a lengthy test and the Topaz program went back.


I love Topaz sharpen AI. I can take it from Lightroom over and back n a relatively short time. I can Adjust the amount of sharpening, and what it is sharpening for, Stabilized, Focus or Sharpen. It is not expensive nor is it slow to perform.

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Feb 22, 2021 16:46:29   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
I believe you have a misunderstanding of the difference between artificial intelligence and programming.
—Bob
Canisdirus wrote:
No matter how you process...you are still doing the manipulating...what I have said all along.
But anything digital is relying on AI in some form or another...on some level or another.
As for RAW..still using the processor of the camera...which technically is AI.

Tech is never going to reverse folks...and yes some folks decide what the line is for them...fine.
Don't use auto AI PP'ing...no one cares whether you do or not. I certainly don't.
Folks who look at your images won't care either. "Oh, you used AI...harumph"...never going to happen.
All folks care about is what the image looks like in the end.
I have never had anyone ask me (other than other photographers) how much PP I did.
No one cares.
And the tech is just going to keep going...
No matter how you process...you are still doing th... (show quote)

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Feb 22, 2021 16:51:45   #
Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY
 
rmalarz wrote:
I believe you have a misunderstanding of the difference between artificial intelligence and programming. —Bob




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Feb 22, 2021 16:52:38   #
PhotosBySteve Loc: Salem, Oregon - USA
 
If the luminance slider within ACR cannot reduce objectionable noise within one of my images, then that image is so poorly exposed, it is not worth saving. For me that amounts to possibly one out of a thousand or more.
I admit, I have never tried Topaz or other noise reducing programs other than PS and LR. I likely never will. I prefer to not underexpose an image.
I do occasionally employ high ISO within the limits of the gear I am using, while still maintaining proper exposure.
Enjoy Dr Topaz and please, no more SCREAMING
Each to their own

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Feb 22, 2021 17:18:07   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
rmalarz wrote:
Personally, I prefer a bit more control over my processes than letting some AI take over.
--Bob


Some of us lack real intelligence and need to depend on artificial intelligence. That doesn't bother me as much as having to depend on artificial sweeteners.

---

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Feb 22, 2021 17:31:56   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA
 
rmalarz wrote:
I believe you have a misunderstanding of the difference between artificial intelligence and programming.
—Bob


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Feb 22, 2021 21:40:36   #
Canisdirus
 
rmalarz wrote:
I believe you have a misunderstanding of the difference between artificial intelligence and programming.
—Bob


It's ALL programming...

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Feb 22, 2021 22:32:37   #
Nickaroo
 
To hell with all of this AI nonsense, I will always show up with my Nikon Army: D5, D500, and D850. Of course that comes with the Best in Glass series. I'am my own AI, as I expose right, make sure that my Composition is right and then just hit the BenQ SW 2700PT with my Apple MacBook Pro connected and the M1 Chip allows me to do whatever I want. I compose the shot, and then I nail it. Whether it's Wildlife, BIF's, Landscape, or some Model that my Most Wonderful Jewish Wife doesn't know, I Nail It!!! MIC DROP!

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