Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Photo Analysis
Stage Lights
Page <prev 2 of 2
Mar 30, 2020 11:38:52   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
FotoHog wrote:
Any suggestions on how to work with stage lights? The multi colored flood and spot lights present a major challenge to me. How do you deal with that? . . .


Because of a life spent as an engineer, it is necessary for me to approach questions like yours not only seeking to answer "how," but also understanding "why" and "what if my first plan doesn't work."

In my experience, the first step in photographing stage presentations is to understand what the lighting is intended to do. I have a couple of friends who are "dramatic artists," and have had a number of visits with them to help understand how to address this challenge. Here are a few of the nuggets that I have been able to glean from these visits.

**Live stage presentations are very different from presentations intended to be photographed or filmed or otherwise recorded. They are intended to capture the human vision and mind and to allow the audience to develop a "suspension of disbelief." This is a critical part of these presentations, and essentially means that the primary objective (or at least one primary objective) is to make the audience forget that they are watching a staged presentation. The same is true of really good movies and movie venues. In one of the best movie theaters in the Dallas area (no longer in existence) the projection screen was set into an architectural feature that was designed to make the audience feel that they were looking through a window. There was no curtain, no visible speakers or lighting sconces, just that simple frame around the screen.

**Because the stage, scenery, and props are necessarily physically limited, both the set design and lighting design (when done right) are intended to separate the characters, whether they be actors or, in your case, dancers, from the setting. This makes it easier for the audience to expand that background in their minds to better reflect the "real" world. This is not at all unlike the way that photographers use various techniques, including background design, selective focus, and others, to separate their subjects from the backgrounds when making portrait photographs. One of the most common techniques is to use a completely different color 'palette' (not ure this is exactly the right word here) for the background than is used for the featured characters.

**This means that most of the time, your challenge is to determine the lighting used for the featured performers and set your camera manually to match that lighting. In my experience, EL's counsel is right on target. For a number of years, I've been using custom white balance settings, and have found that they almost always fall somewhere between 2800K and 4000K. Older venues that still have older lighting equipment tend to fall toward the lower end of that range, while more modern setups will be farther toward 4000K. I have found that using Auto White Balance is a disastrous mistake almost every time. The pronounced extreme colors of the background set elements mercilessly confuse the in-camera processor, producing results that are far from anything useful. For instance, I have learned that a custom white balance close to 2900K will produce results that are really close to correct for events in my church's sanctuary at night. Many other venues have yielded very good results at 3200K-3400K.

Of course, there are going to be times when your goal is not so much to record the performers as to capture the overall scene or environment. In this case, you obviously do the opposite, which is to set to the overall balance of the stage. But even then, rarely do you want to go all the way to "correct." If a scene has an overall blue appearance, it is generally not desirable to eliminate that blue entirely, but rather to just "tame" it somewhat to allow better visual representation of it. The same is true for red or yellow or any other color. The problem in this case is that in any scene lighted monochromatically, the complementary colors are never going to be fully recoverable, because they simply aren't there to be reflected from objects of those colors. (To demonstrate this effect to yourself, go out at night and photograph a blue car under sodium street lights--the yellow ones. Try to recover the blue color of the car in post processing. Simply can't be done without repainting that car.) Here the effect is usually much more pronounced under LED lighting than under incandescent lighting, because incandescent lamps and filters have a lot more trouble being truly monochromatic than some of the more modern types of lighting. So you just have to remember what we learned earlier about the presentation not being about the sets and just do the best you can.

Finally...be sure to either use a shutter speed slower than or equal to 1/60 second (in North America) or 1/50 second (in Europe). In some cases, color balance shifts somewhat during the voltage swings of the power cycle. You need to capture at least a full cycle to get the correct color balance. If your camera has "Flicker Reduction," you can use shutter speeds of 1/120 or 1/100, respectively, because that function will "synch" your shutter to any light intensity variation that might be present.

This may be way more than you wanted to know about this subject, but I hope it helps at least a little.

Reply
Mar 30, 2020 12:51:12   #
FotoHog Loc: on Cloud 9
 
larryepage wrote:
Because of a life spent as an engineer, it is necessary for me to approach questions like yours not only seeking to answer "how," but also understanding "why" and "what if my first plan doesn't work."

In my experience, the first step in photographing stage presentations is to understand what the lighting is intended to do. I have a couple of friends who are "dramatic artists," and have had a number of visits with them to help understand how to address this challenge. Here are a few of the nuggets that I have been able to glean from these visits.

**Live stage presentations are very different from presentations intended to be photographed or filmed or otherwise recorded. They are intended to capture the human vision and mind and to allow the audience to develop a "suspension of disbelief." This is a critical part of these presentations, and essentially means that the primary objective (or at least one primary objective) is to make the audience forget that they are watching a staged presentation. The same is true of really good movies and movie venues. In one of the best movie theaters in the Dallas area (no longer in existence) the projection screen was set into an architectural feature that was designed to make the audience feel that they were looking through a window. There was no curtain, no visible speakers or lighting sconces, just that simple frame around the screen.

**Because the stage, scenery, and props are necessarily physically limited, both the set design and lighting design (when done right) are intended to separate the characters, whether they be actors or, in your case, dancers, from the setting. This makes it easier for the audience to expand that background in their minds to better reflect the "real" world. This is not at all unlike the way that photographers use various techniques, including background design, selective focus, and others, to separate their subjects from the backgrounds when making portrait photographs. One of the most common techniques is to use a completely different color 'palette' (not ure this is exactly the right word here) for the background than is used for the featured characters.

**This means that most of the time, your challenge is to determine the lighting used for the featured performers and set your camera manually to match that lighting. In my experience, EL's counsel is right on target. For a number of years, I've been using custom white balance settings, and have found that they almost always fall somewhere between 2800K and 4000K. Older venues that still have older lighting equipment tend to fall toward the lower end of that range, while more modern setups will be farther toward 4000K. I have found that using Auto White Balance is a disastrous mistake almost every time. The pronounced extreme colors of the background set elements mercilessly confuse the in-camera processor, producing results that are far from anything useful. For instance, I have learned that a custom white balance close to 2900K will produce results that are really close to correct for events in my church's sanctuary at night. Many other venues have yielded very good results at 3200K-3400K.

Of course, there are going to be times when your goal is not so much to record the performers as to capture the overall scene or environment. In this case, you obviously do the opposite, which is to set to the overall balance of the stage. But even then, rarely do you want to go all the way to "correct." If a scene has an overall blue appearance, it is generally not desirable to eliminate that blue entirely, but rather to just "tame" it somewhat to allow better visual representation of it. The same is true for red or yellow or any other color. The problem in this case is that in any scene lighted monochromatically, the complementary colors are never going to be fully recoverable, because they simply aren't there to be reflected from objects of those colors. (To demonstrate this effect to yourself, go out at night and photograph a blue car under sodium street lights--the yellow ones. Try to recover the blue color of the car in post processing. Simply can't be done without repainting that car.) Here the effect is usually much more pronounced under LED lighting than under incandescent lighting, because incandescent lamps and filters have a lot more trouble being truly monochromatic than some of the more modern types of lighting. So you just have to remember what we learned earlier about the presentation not being about the sets and just do the best you can.

Finally...be sure to either use a shutter speed slower than or equal to 1/60 second (in North America) or 1/50 second (in Europe). In some cases, color balance shifts somewhat during the voltage swings of the power cycle. You need to capture at least a full cycle to get the correct color balance. If your camera has "Flicker Reduction," you can use shutter speeds of 1/120 or 1/100, respectively, because that function will "synch" your shutter to any light intensity variation that might be present.

This may be way more than you wanted to know about this subject, but I hope it helps at least a little.
Because of a life spent as an engineer, it is nece... (show quote)


WOW that is a motherload of information. Very educational and still a bit over my head. Thank you for taking the time to lay it all out in such detail.

Thinking back, I can imagine how difficult it would have been to apply all those pointers under the rapidly changing lights onstage. I am devastated to think that I have to remain the same old imperfect perfectionist. . .

Reply
Mar 30, 2020 13:59:17   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
larryepage wrote:
.....One of the most common techniques is to use a completely different color 'palette' (not sure this is exactly the right word here) for the background than is used for the featured characters.......


The different "palette" can be achieved easily in PP by selecting the background and giving it a small WB shift in the right direction. Using the fact that warm colours advance and cool colours retreat, one of the most effective ways to separate a subject from its background is (amongst other things) to give the subject a slight WB shift towards yellow and give the background a slight WB shift towards blue.

I agree with your comment that colour casts should be tamed rather than got rid of completely. I would say that applies to things like blue snow and other natural occurrences of unwanted tints.

I also liked your comment about suspending belief. I always thought it was funny that the better someone is acting, the less aware of it we will be. The reason is that if somebody is doing a good job of acting, you forget about the fact that they're acting and you get taken in by the performance. The same applies to a good storyline. Ideally you get taken in by the story and forget that it's just a story. Most of us watch films etc to be taken in by them. The less you're thinking about the acting, storyline etc, the better.

Reply
 
 
Mar 30, 2020 15:17:29   #
FotoHog Loc: on Cloud 9
 
R.G. wrote:
The different "palette" can be achieved easily in PP by selecting the background and giving it a small WB shift in the right direction. Using the fact that warm colours advance and cool colours retreat, one of the most effective ways to separate a subject from its background is (amongst other things) to give the subject a slight WB shift towards yellow and give the background a slight WB shift towards blue.

I agree with your comment that colour casts should be tamed rather than got rid of completely. I would say that applies to things like blue snow and other natural occurrences of unwanted tints.

I also liked your comment about suspending belief. I always thought it was funny that the better someone is acting, the less aware of it we will be. The reason is that if somebody is doing a good job of acting, you forget about the fact that they're acting and you get taken in by the performance. The same applies to a good storyline. Ideally you get taken in by the story and forget that it's just a story. Most of us watch films etc to be taken in by them. The less you're thinking about the acting, storyline etc, the better.
The different "palette" can be achieved ... (show quote)


I am always impressed by my wife's ability to totally suspend reality while watching her movies. My mind doesn't work that way. I can't filter out the acting and look upon movies only as fairy tales for adults. Sorry Hollywood . .

Reply
Mar 30, 2020 16:05:36   #
Heather Iles Loc: UK, Somerset
 
larryepage wrote:
Because of a life spent as an engineer, it is necessary for me to approach questions like yours not only seeking to answer "how," but also understanding "why" and "what if my first plan doesn't work."

In my experience, the first step in photographing stage presentations is to understand what the lighting is intended to do. I have a couple of friends who are "dramatic artists," and have had a number of visits with them to help understand how to address this challenge. Here are a few of the nuggets that I have been able to glean from these visits.

**Live stage presentations are very different from presentations intended to be photographed or filmed or otherwise recorded. They are intended to capture the human vision and mind and to allow the audience to develop a "suspension of disbelief." This is a critical part of these presentations, and essentially means that the primary objective (or at least one primary objective) is to make the audience forget that they are watching a staged presentation. The same is true of really good movies and movie venues. In one of the best movie theaters in the Dallas area (no longer in existence) the projection screen was set into an architectural feature that was designed to make the audience feel that they were looking through a window. There was no curtain, no visible speakers or lighting sconces, just that simple frame around the screen.

**Because the stage, scenery, and props are necessarily physically limited, both the set design and lighting design (when done right) are intended to separate the characters, whether they be actors or, in your case, dancers, from the setting. This makes it easier for the audience to expand that background in their minds to better reflect the "real" world. This is not at all unlike the way that photographers use various techniques, including background design, selective focus, and others, to separate their subjects from the backgrounds when making portrait photographs. One of the most common techniques is to use a completely different color 'palette' (not ure this is exactly the right word here) for the background than is used for the featured characters.

**This means that most of the time, your challenge is to determine the lighting used for the featured performers and set your camera manually to match that lighting. In my experience, EL's counsel is right on target. For a number of years, I've been using custom white balance settings, and have found that they almost always fall somewhere between 2800K and 4000K. Older venues that still have older lighting equipment tend to fall toward the lower end of that range, while more modern setups will be farther toward 4000K. I have found that using Auto White Balance is a disastrous mistake almost every time. The pronounced extreme colors of the background set elements mercilessly confuse the in-camera processor, producing results that are far from anything useful. For instance, I have learned that a custom white balance close to 2900K will produce results that are really close to correct for events in my church's sanctuary at night. Many other venues have yielded very good results at 3200K-3400K.

Of course, there are going to be times when your goal is not so much to record the performers as to capture the overall scene or environment. In this case, you obviously do the opposite, which is to set to the overall balance of the stage. But even then, rarely do you want to go all the way to "correct." If a scene has an overall blue appearance, it is generally not desirable to eliminate that blue entirely, but rather to just "tame" it somewhat to allow better visual representation of it. The same is true for red or yellow or any other color. The problem in this case is that in any scene lighted monochromatically, the complementary colors are never going to be fully recoverable, because they simply aren't there to be reflected from objects of those colors. (To demonstrate this effect to yourself, go out at night and photograph a blue car under sodium street lights--the yellow ones. Try to recover the blue color of the car in post processing. Simply can't be done without repainting that car.) Here the effect is usually much more pronounced under LED lighting than under incandescent lighting, because incandescent lamps and filters have a lot more trouble being truly monochromatic than some of the more modern types of lighting. So you just have to remember what we learned earlier about the presentation not being about the sets and just do the best you can.

Finally...be sure to either use a shutter speed slower than or equal to 1/60 second (in North America) or 1/50 second (in Europe). In some cases, color balance shifts somewhat during the voltage swings of the power cycle. You need to capture at least a full cycle to get the correct color balance. If your camera has "Flicker Reduction," you can use shutter speeds of 1/120 or 1/100, respectively, because that function will "synch" your shutter to any light intensity variation that might be present.

This may be way more than you wanted to know about this subject, but I hope it helps at least a little.
Because of a life spent as an engineer, it is nece... (show quote)


Wow! It is good of you to take the time to explain it all which is somewhat over my head. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain how you would have taken the photo if you had to.

Much obliged.

H

Reply
Mar 30, 2020 17:16:22   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Heather Iles wrote:
Wow! It is good of you to take the time to explain it all which is somewhat over my head. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain how you would have taken the photo if you had to.

Much obliged.

H

No...I'm not very good at boiling things down. But I guess the fourth point should have been that <most of the time>, no matter what else is going on everywhere else, the featured performers are generally lit with light that is pretty constant and pretty "vanilla."

So the bottom line is to essentially ignore all of the impressive things that are going on everywhere else and look just at those performers. Most of the time, they will not present the problem that the appearance of everything else makes you think that they do. Because most of the time, their lighting and appearance is not going to change, at least not very much. In this case, the blue lighting and the background is going to cause Auto WB to move too far to the red end of the scale. So my inclination (and remember...I wasn't there to see if anything else tricky was going on) would be to use Manual White Balance with a Kelvin temperature probably around 3200 or 3400. If possible, and if I trusted my rear display screen to help me, I'd take a quick look and see if I needed to adjust a little bit one way or the other. Then I'd not worry very much about it for the rest of the performance. (There are some exceptions, like identifying a follow spot that is obviously different from all of the other lights, but those aren't terribly common.)

The other thing that I have learned is not to overdo things on color saturation and contrast. I like for my images to be a little more saturated than a lot of folks prefer. But I've learned that I can't do that for stage presentations. It's not necessary to bland everything out, just be careful not to overdo things. And stage makeup emphasizes facial features to make them more visible and expressive to the audience, so really high contrast isn't necessary to produce strong images.

If things turn out later to be off a little bit, it should be easily fixable, even if you happen to be saving JPEGs, because the correction doesn't have to move very far, and it is probably going to be pretty similar for most of the images. If I use Auto WB, on the other hand, the camera is going to swing its guess at what is correct this way and that every time the background color or predominant lighting color changes, creating a random mess for me to fix later.

Hope this helps. This is a discipline that has been and continues to be fun for me. It can be frustrating at first, and there can be a temptation to make it harder than it really needs to be. (That was the most difficult lesson for me to learn.) So have fun and keep trying. I'm sure that there are other approaches that also work. I just like to try to find the easiest ones.

Reply
Mar 31, 2020 03:31:31   #
Heather Iles Loc: UK, Somerset
 
larryepage wrote:
No...I'm not very good at boiling things down. But I guess the fourth point should have been that <most of the time>, no matter what else is going on everywhere else, the featured performers are generally lit with light that is pretty constant and pretty "vanilla."

So the bottom line is to essentially ignore all of the impressive things that are going on everywhere else and look just at those performers. Most of the time, they will not present the problem that the appearance of everything else makes you think that they do. Because most of the time, their lighting and appearance is not going to change, at least not very much. In this case, the blue lighting and the background is going to cause Auto WB to move too far to the red end of the scale. So my inclination (and remember...I wasn't there to see if anything else tricky was going on) would be to use Manual White Balance with a Kelvin temperature probably around 3200 or 3400. If possible, and if I trusted my rear display screen to help me, I'd take a quick look and see if I needed to adjust a little bit one way or the other. Then I'd not worry very much about it for the rest of the performance. (There are some exceptions, like identifying a follow spot that is obviously different from all of the other lights, but those aren't terribly common.)

The other thing that I have learned is not to overdo things on color saturation and contrast. I like for my images to be a little more saturated than a lot of folks prefer. But I've learned that I can't do that for stage presentations. It's not necessary to bland everything out, just be careful not to overdo things. And stage makeup emphasizes facial features to make them more visible and expressive to the audience, so really high contrast isn't necessary to produce strong images.

If things turn out later to be off a little bit, it should be easily fixable, even if you happen to be saving JPEGs, because the correction doesn't have to move very far, and it is probably going to be pretty similar for most of the images. If I use Auto WB, on the other hand, the camera is going to swing its guess at what is correct this way and that every time the background color or predominant lighting color changes, creating a random mess for me to fix later.

Hope this helps. This is a discipline that has been and continues to be fun for me. It can be frustrating at first, and there can be a temptation to make it harder than it really needs to be. (That was the most difficult lesson for me to learn.) So have fun and keep trying. I'm sure that there are other approaches that also work. I just like to try to find the easiest ones.
No...I'm not very good at boiling things down. Bu... (show quote)


Thank you, Larry, for taking the time to explain how you would have taken the photo bearing in mind that you weren't there. I am glad that I asked the question as you not only said what not to do but why you shouldn't do it which is most important and it all makes sense now. I have copied your two responses and will refer to them in the future.

As amateurs we are baffled about whatever is going on and not concentrating on the subject and as you said use Manual White Balance with a Kelvin temperature probably around 3200 or 3400. I will have to look up what or how to use Kelvin temperature. I am sure Youtube has a video explaining it all.

Much appreciated.

H

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 2
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Photo Analysis
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.