Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
I really need RAW help - please
Page <<first <prev 12 of 13 next>
Oct 9, 2019 22:57:10   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Sark17 wrote:
Yeah mine is CC, definitely doesn’t say classic so I imagine for $10/month it’s the watered down version!


For $10/mo. you get both Lightroom CC and Classic, plus Photoshop CC, Bridge, and other goodies. So install your preference (or all of them) and have fun.

Reply
Oct 9, 2019 23:07:19   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
Just remember RAW is not an image format; the images shown from RAW files are "preview jpgs" to give you a general idea of what the image is, but is far from perfect - often they will look "flat" compared to in camera processed jpgs, and exposure may be off as well with noise. BUT, there is MUCH more potential from a RAW file since it contains ALL of the captured information from your cameras sensor, much of which is discarded when the camera processes a jpg based on your cameras setting and cannot be recovered unless you have a corresponding RAW file saved...you have much more latitude (exposure, white balance, noise, and many other settings) with a RAW file not possible with a jpg only capture. For the best of both just shoot JPG fine and RAW while you practice RAW tweaking.
Just remember RAW is not an image format; the imag... (show quote)


This not true, and it discourages people from considering raw files. Raw files are most certainly properly called "image files," since they are, after all, generated by cameras for the express purpose of creating images.

I will speak from my direct experience, with Canon raw files and Canon's DPP program. When you open a Canon raw files DPP is not showing "preview jpgs to give you a general idea of what the image is," the images are not "flat compared to in camera processed jpgs," and it is not true that "exposure may be off as well with noise."

It is true that "you have much more latitude" working with raw files than working with JPEG files.

I would say that working with both file formats, raw and JPEG, would help with learning to shoot better JPEGs, if that were ones goal, not help with "practicing raw tweaking."

I am talking about using the camera manufacturers' program specifically designed to read the same manufacturer's proprietary raw files. But there is no inherent reason why anything else needs to be true. What you are describing is the consequence of the raw files formats being proprietary.

Reply
Oct 9, 2019 23:48:28   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
Sark17 wrote:
Hello! I am new to shooting RAW and am getting more confused by the day. I have a professional photographer friend who tells me I HAVE to shoot in raw on an upcoming trip to Africa (I leave Friday!) So I started shooting raw to practice using my dogs. I figured it would be fairly straight forward - I was very wrong. I use a Canon EOS R with various lenses.

In the first screen shot you can see the JPG (right) compared to the RAW photo (left). The Raw photo is super grainy. The JPG is fine. I didn't edit any of these or even try for any good composition, just wanted to practice working with RAW and getting them off of my card - which has also proven to be complicated.

So, my questions - 1) why are my RAW photos much more grainy than JPG? I realize ISO is a bit high in this specific photo, but even when it's not at all, I get the same result. 2) what is the most straightforward way to get to get a raw file off of an SD card and actually be able to do anything with it on a Mac? Lastly, I am probably just going to shoot Large JPG to save myself the panic of ruining something trying to use RAW if I can't figure this out...

I am currently using a DNG converter to get them to Lightroom, then I am not totally sure what to do with them after that, I couldn't even figure out how to save it to post it here as an example as I did with the JPEG.

Thank you so much in advance for any tips/tricks you are willing to lend - I am pretty confused!
Hello! I am new to shooting RAW and am getting mor... (show quote)


You sure do draw a crowd.

Reply
 
 
Oct 10, 2019 00:02:18   #
Traveller_Jeff
 
Jim-Pops wrote:
......

Your example is indicating you shot at 1600 iso. I try and keep it 1,000 or less. If outside I choose 600 or less. The lower the number the less grain/noise. You shot at 500 of a sec., your picture should be fine at around 250. Your aperture is 2.8. I think you could get just about the same bokeh with f/4. All this is in an effort to get your iso down for less noise in the picture. I think you friend will help you understand this a bit better than I can in this short post.


If you are using telephoto lenses, keeping the following in mind: say you're shooting at 150mm, then your shutter speed should be no slower than 1/150th of a second. If you're shooting at 400mm, your shutter speed should be no slower than 1/400th second. In less than ideal lighting that might require that you boost your ISO considerably (1600 or higher) or risk a picture spoiled by motion blur. If your camera has a NR (Noise Reduction) setting, then when shooting at high ISO, be sure to turn that setting on Maximum. Photoshop has filters that can minimize noise caused by higher than ideal ISO settings.

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 00:32:11   #
Ruraldi Loc: Milmay, NJ
 
I think you should take me along on your trip. I'll be happy to edit your photos every evening and allow you to enjoy our surroundings. Sounds like a plan to me. What do you think?
Enjoy the moment - keep on clicking

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 01:45:03   #
Real Nikon Lover Loc: Simi Valley, CA
 
Congrats and good luck on your trip. Exciting.

Looks like you received plenty of replies and great info. In my quick read through I don't recall seeing any specific comment on photo data. But... for what it is worth, your ISO was 1600 on the jpg photo with an F/2.8 lens you should be able to drop ISO in that amount of light. Higher ISO = graininess.

I took a quick try and cropping and processing the jpg file further, although a RAW would have been better to examine. (attached end product).

GREAT looking dog. Looks like s/he would be a good old friend.


(Download)

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 02:38:03   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
These new examples look great. You're about to leave so these questions / comments may not seem important. If / when you get a chance, consider:

1. You've referenced LRCC in a few of your posts as well as problems with importing EOS-R RAW files. You should have Lightroom Classic installed, rather than Lightroom Creative Cloud. The LRCC is intended for mobile devices, not full-fledged computers. Is this possibly the root cause of your issue?

2. You referenced the DNG baking-in the noise. This may be a good description, but that's not the actual situation. If the issue proves to be LRCC vs LRClassic, a number of issues may be resolved by clarifying and correcting the software involved.

3. Within LR Classic, importing a DNG will trigger the same defaults for NR as importing the corresponding RAW file. The images within this linked discussion shows the tabs where you can evaluate the default NR applied by LR as well as giving ideas on how / where to modify these defaults when editing your images. Basics of noise processing

Have a great trip. Remember that your RAW files are forever. You can always revisit them and start anew as if you shot them yesterday.
These new examples look great. You're about to lea... (show quote)


Have just read your Noise Reduction article for the first time - brilliant and so well explained.
Grateful Thanks, Del.

Reply
 
 
Oct 10, 2019 08:23:44   #
Photoguy120
 
Ten bucks a month. What program is that?

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 09:11:10   #
robertjsmith
 
The real secret is to use the way you most enjoy.

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 09:52:44   #
rambler Loc: Masssachusetts
 
A quick tip for editing RAW images. In Photoshop (and LR, too) there are "profiles" that give you different looks with one click of your mouse. In PS Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) you will see "Profiles" near the top of the column in Basic. The default is Adobe Color, but notice that is a Drop Down box with other choices including a Black and White option. But notice to the right, there is an icon of four small squares, two squares atop two squares. Click on that and many options of different looks will appear. Pass your cursor over each to see an example of the effect it will have on your image. You can choose anyone to your taste and your new image will jump back to the basic option where you can then add more changes with the sliders as usual. Later you can learn how to create your own Profiles. For example, you can create sunset looks which you can then apply to any image in the future. But, for now just play with the "profiles that Adobe provides. Easy one click processing!

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 09:54:00   #
Ed Chu Loc: Las Vegas NV
 
Traveller_Jeff wrote:
If you are using telephoto lenses, keeping the following in mind: say you're shooting at 150mm, then your shutter speed should be no slower than 1/150th of a second. If you're shooting at 400mm, your shutter speed should be no slower than 1/400th second. In less than ideal lighting that might require that you boost your ISO considerably (1600 or higher) or risk a picture spoiled by motion blur. If your camera has a NR (Noise Reduction) setting, then when shooting at high ISO, be sure to turn that setting on Maximum. Photoshop has filters that can minimize noise caused by higher than ideal ISO settings.
If you are using telephoto lenses, keeping the fol... (show quote)


What happens if you leave NR on all the time?

Reply
 
 
Oct 10, 2019 11:19:08   #
Traveller_Jeff
 
Ed Chu wrote:
What happens if you leave NR on all the time?


That's exactly what I've been doing. I see no negative impact there. If others do, I'd appreciate additional information.

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 12:09:02   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Blenheim Orange wrote:
This not true, and it discourages people from considering raw files. Raw files are most certainly properly called "image files," since they are, after all, generated by cameras for the express purpose of creating images.

I will speak from my direct experience, with Canon raw files and Canon's DPP program. When you open a Canon raw files DPP is not showing "preview jpgs to give you a general idea of what the image is," the images are not "flat compared to in camera processed jpgs," and it is not true that "exposure may be off as well with noise."

It is true that "you have much more latitude" working with raw files than working with JPEG files.

I would say that working with both file formats, raw and JPEG, would help with learning to shoot better JPEGs, if that were ones goal, not help with "practicing raw tweaking."

I am talking about using the camera manufacturers' program specifically designed to read the same manufacturer's proprietary raw files. But there is no inherent reason why anything else needs to be true. What you are describing is the consequence of the raw files formats being proprietary.
This not true, and it discourages people from cons... (show quote)


When you open a Canon raw file in DPP, the software reads the EXIF table in the JPEG preview image. Then it uses the same parameters as listed in the EXIF to read the raw data and process it to a 16-bit bitmap image. That is why what you see (on an 8-bit monitor) is a bitmap image that looks like the JPEG from the camera. On a 10-bit monitor, it may look quite a bit better. If you save the bitmap as a 16-bit TIFF and edit it in Lightroom or Photoshop (etc.), you can extract more information from highlights and shadows.

When you open the same Canon raw file in a third party app, that app CANNOT make the image look identical to the JPEG, because it does not use Canon's "secret sauce". Third party apps have to use their own camera profiles and default processing algorithms. They can read only a limited portion of the EXIF such as hue and white balance.

What you CAN do in a third party app, that most people do not do, is create your own custom default profiles that approximate what your camera JPEG processor does. Adobe apps already have presets for this, although they don't match exactly.

The unprocessed raw data table in the raw file wrapper is no more a digital image than an exposed, undeveloped roll of color negative film. It can be developed any number of ways, using all sorts of different tools.

The distinction of "raw file" vs "JPEG or TIFF image file" is important, because it honors the inherent, but unrealized potential of the data to be processed in any way we like. It's a bit of a warning that there MUST BE a development and conversion step before we get to something that can be displayed electronically or printed.

The idea is that JPEGs and TIFFs and other *image* file formats contain processed, limited versions of that original data.

Because we cannot change the raw data table in a raw file, we can always get back to it and use a future version of software to process it differently. SOME raw file converters like DPP will save your changes in an *internal* sidecar table. But DPP can always get back to what the EXIF table contains. The raw data is never altered. And a third party app cannot read those Canon changes from a raw file! Edit a raw file in DPP, then import it into or open it in any other app, and it will look different upon initial conversion.

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 12:59:11   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
burkphoto wrote:
When you open a Canon raw file in DPP, the software reads the EXIF table in the JPEG preview image. Then it uses the same parameters as listed in the EXIF to read the raw data and process it to a 16-bit bitmap image. That is why what you see (on an 8-bit monitor) is a bitmap image that looks like the JPEG from the camera. On a 10-bit monitor, it may look quite a bit better. If you save the bitmap as a 16-bit TIFF and edit it in Lightroom or Photoshop (etc.), you can extract more information from highlights and shadows.

When you open the same Canon raw file in a third party app, that app CANNOT make the image look identical to the JPEG, because it does not use Canon's "secret sauce". Third party apps have to use their own camera profiles and default processing algorithms. They can read only a limited portion of the EXIF such as hue and white balance.

What you CAN do in a third party app, that most people do not do, is create your own custom default profiles that approximate what your camera JPEG processor does. Adobe apps already have presets for this, although they don't match exactly.

The unprocessed raw data table in the raw file wrapper is no more a digital image than an exposed, undeveloped roll of color negative film. It can be developed any number of ways, using all sorts of different tools.

The distinction of "raw file" vs "JPEG or TIFF image file" is important, because it The unprocessed raw data table in the raw file wrapper is no more a digital image than an exposed, undeveloped roll of color negative film. It can be developed any number of ways, using all sorts of different tools. The unprocessed raw data table in the raw file wrapper is no more a digital image than an exposed, undeveloped roll of color negative film. It can be developed any number of ways, using all sorts of different tools.
The idea is that JPEGs and TIFFs and other *image* file formats contain processed, limited versions of that original data.

Because we cannot change the raw data table in a raw file, we can always get back to it and use a future version of software to process it differently. SOME raw file converters like DPP will save your changes in an *internal* sidecar table. But DPP can always get back to what the EXIF table contains. The raw data is never altered. And a third party app cannot read those Canon changes from a raw file! Edit a raw file in DPP, then import it into or open it in any other app, and it will look different upon initial conversion.
When you open a Canon raw file in DPP, the softwar... (show quote)


Great description, thanks Bill. No disagreement with any of that.

For years I avoided working with raw files because people said they need to be processed; they are not really image files; they look flat until you bring them to life; it will take a lot of time and skill to process them; when you open them you are just seeing a JPEG, so why bother?

I found in my direct experience that none of that is true, and I regret listening to it. I made a commitment to myself that of I could help others to avoid making that mistake, I would.

Conceptualizing raw files as "negatives" that need "development" may be useful to some people, but I also know that it scares people away from experimenting with raw files who could benefit from working with raw files, and it is, after all, just an abstraction.

Mike

Reply
Oct 10, 2019 13:29:18   #
Bill P
 
For years I avoided working with raw files because people said they need to be processed;
Yes, they need to do that, but you get to make the coices, to not offload the creative process to a small underpowered computer.

they are not really image files;
This is a pointless argument made by folks that have an overwhelming need to be right. There is a slight bit of truth but if you expect a digital file to be JUST LIKE a negative, your are just a fool. That's not how digital works, it converts the image into an electronic file, just like CD's and DVD's. Like everything else in life that has advantages and disadvantages. Just ignore this stupidity.

they look flat until you bring them to life;
Yes, they do. So? Oh, I'm sorry, you just want to push the shutter button and let Kodak do the rest, like back in the beginning of film photography?

it will take a lot of time and skill to process them;
I take a bit of skill, but so does making a good wet darkroom print, and nobody quit photography because of the work necessary. Another stupid, needless argument.


when you open them you are just seeing a JPEG, so why bother?
The jpeg of which you speak is JUST A PREVIEW! It's not a final print. Well, if all you do is view photos on a monitor. But I think that will go away like music CD's, and printing will return like vinyl records. Again, a pointless argument.

I found in my direct experience that none of that is true, and I regret listening to it. I made a commitment to myself that of I could help others to avoid making that mistake, I would.

Good luck on that. I recently saw a bumper sticker that applies to all the pointless arguments above: "CRITICAL THINKING- America's other big deficit."

Critical thinking is best applied to many of the posts on this forum.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 12 of 13 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.