Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Don't worry about it, Gilkar … I happen to be a history nut, and I only had one of these in the can - the one about Thomas Jefferson and John Adams - both having died simultaneously, on July 4th, 1826 … had NO IDEA who the other one was, though …

Many of these other things - like the music one - don't have much to do w/ history, anyway ….

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

[quote=Chris T]Look - the way I see it And, it continued like that, as they pushed northward - until it all came to a head in 1848 - over Texas - most of whose citizens - had sought Republic status - for some time. When that war was won, the tide changed, the Rio Grande was established as the de facto border, and all lands north of it were made part of America, and all lands south of it - were made part of Mexico - simple - wasn't it? …. No?[/quote

Simple?, In a word NO!

Texas won independence from Mexico in 1836. Mexico claimed they were not independent, just in rebellion. And anyway, they said the border was not the Rio Grande as Texas claimed, it was the Nueces river (farther north).
Texas asked the US to annex them as a state, the US said no. Two reasons 1. Northerners in the US didn't want another slave state 2. Mexico threatened a war if the US made Texas a state. Then Polk became president in the 1844 election. He believed in "Manifest Destiny" and wanted to imitate Jefferson by making the US a much larger country in land area. He advocated taking all of the Oregon Territory (it ended up being split with Great Britain/Canada). Between them the US and Britain squeezed Russia out of California and back up to Alaska. He was for annexing Texas and started the process immediately. He negotiated the purchase of the South West and California but the deal fell through when the Mexican Gvt fell (partly due to the purchase deal) and then the war started when US Troops sent to patrol the border (Rio Grande river) clashed with Mexican troops patrolling the border (Nueces river). Mexican troops ambushed a US patrol and the US struck back. Polk got Congress to declare war by a very thin vote (Congressman A. Lincoln voted against it). And in a little over a year the US defeated Mexico, conquered all of the SW and a big % of present day Mexico. Some wanted to make all of Mexico into territories and then states but that idea fell apart quickly. Instead the anti-war congressmen pushed through the payment of the pre-war price the US had offered and except for a few places (Gadsden Purchase cleared up most of it) the border was settled. In modern times a few disputes came up and were settled because the Rio Grande shifted course during some major flood periods. That is the problem with using rivers as borders, the suckers have a bad habit of moving around.

Oh, one of the reasons for the war and one of the main reasons the US won was Santa Anna. He was in exile, the US gave him money and a ride to Mexico so he could take over and settle things with the US by sale and treaty. He took over and went to war with the US, among other things he wanted Texas back. He was one of the main reasons the US won because frankly he was not really a very good general and had a habit of making his buddies and political allies generals even if they didn't know a damn thing about being a general.

Mr Bill 2011 Loc: southern Indiana

I got a perfect score, zero out of ten!

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

[quote=robertjerl][quote=Chris T]Look - the way I see it And, it continued like that, as they pushed northward - until it all came to a head in 1848 - over Texas - most of whose citizens - had sought Republic status - for some time. When that war was won, the tide changed, the Rio Grande was established as the de facto border, and all lands north of it were made part of America, and all lands south of it - were made part of Mexico - simple - wasn't it? …. No?[/quote

Simple?, In a word NO!

Texas won independence from Mexico in 1836. Mexico claimed they were not independent, just in rebellion. And anyway, they said the border was not the Rio Grande as Texas claimed, it was the Nueces river (farther north).
Texas asked the US to annex them as a state, the US said no. Two reasons 1. Northerners in the US didn't want another slave state 2. Mexico threatened a war if the US made Texas a state. Then Polk became president in the 1844 election. He believed in "Manifest Destiny" and wanted to imitate Jefferson by making the US a much larger country in land area. He advocated taking all of the Oregon Territory (it ended up being split with Great Britain/Canada). Between them the US and Britain squeezed Russia out of California and back up to Alaska. He was for annexing Texas and started the process immediately. He negotiated the purchase of the South West and California but the deal fell through when the Mexican Gvt fell (partly due to the purchase deal) and then the war started when US Troops sent to patrol the border (Rio Grande river) clashed with Mexican troops patrolling the border (Nueces river). Mexican troops ambushed a US patrol and the US struck back. Polk got Congress to declare war by a very thin vote (Congressman A. Lincoln voted against it). And in a little over a year the US defeated Mexico, conquered all of the SW and a big % of present day Mexico. Some wanted to make all of Mexico into territories and then states but that idea fell apart quickly. Instead the anti-war congressmen pushed through the payment of the pre-war price the US had offered and except for a few places (Gadsden Purchase cleared up most of it) the border was settled. In modern times a few disputes came up and were settled because the Rio Grande shifted course during some major flood periods. That is the problem with using rivers as borders, the suckers have a bad habit of moving around.

Oh, one of the reasons for the war and one of the main reasons the US won was Santa Anna. He was in exile, the US gave him money and a ride to Mexico so he could take over and settle things with the US by sale and treaty. He took over and went to war with the US, among other things he wanted Texas back. He was one of the main reasons the US won because frankly he was not really a very good general and had a habit of making his buddies and political allies generals even if they didn't know a damn thing about being a general.[/quote]

Interesting perspective you have on all this, huh - Robert? … Of course - Santa Ana got HIS - a little later, after the Alamo … and then, in disgrace - settled into a life of obscurity. I wonder how things would be -today - had Stephen Austin and Sam Houston got their wish - and wound up making Texas a Republic!!!!!

I mean - for all time - not just for a year, or two !!!! …

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Congratulations, Mr Bill … you win the Dunce award!!! … Now, go stand in the corner - facing the walls!!!

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

The Alamo was in 1836 during the Texas revolution.
Texas was an independent republic for 10 years. 1836 until it was annexed as a state in 1846. (It took the Texans 10 years to talk the US into annexing them.)
The Texas revolution started in large part because Mexicans who believed in their constitution had retreated there from the main part of Mexico and the US and other foreign settlers who had been invited in when most Mexicans didn't want to move there promptly joined with them to oppose Santa Ana and his buddies. Santa Ana marched on Texas to wipe out his old political foes. But the foreign settlers not only joined the rebellion they sent for friends and relatives to come join them. Most were American southerners but more than a few were British and others.

After the battle of San Jacinto the Texans took Santa Ana prisoner and didn't release him until he signed papers saying Texas was independent and all Mexican troops would leave. That was why Mexico claimed Texas wasn't independent, only in rebellion. The papers were "not a real treaty" and Santa Ana only signed them so he would be turned loose. Santa Ana was president of Mexico 11 or 12 times (depends on who is counting) from 1833 to 1855. Almost none of those changes of government were by the ballot box. Mostly military coups either by Santa Ana or against him.
He was in my opinion a very poor president and general, but his rivals were just as bad or worse for the most part. And he started his military career fighting for the Spanish Empire against the Mexican Revolution. It was largely a class thing, he was pure Spanish born in New Spain (Mexico) - a Criollo/Creole and second class to the Peninsulars (Spanish born) - the rebels were mostly mixed European and Indian or Mestizos. However he changed sides several times dependent on where the advantage for him lay. Often helping someone become president and then helping over throw him.
You would think that someone would have killed him at some time but he actually managed to live into his 80s and die of old age.

Oh, I taught history, geography, government and a few other things for 35 years if you count my year of student teaching. All in the Los Angeles Unified School District and 29 of those years in East Los Angeles - the traditional Hispanic/Latino/Mexican area of LA County.

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Ah, I see … so THAT explains why you are so succinct about the subject, and have your own objective interpretation, as well, Robert … thanks for sorting that out for me … since writing the last - looked up the Republic of Texas on the Net - so, yes - seems to be - pretty much as you say it was. However, the supposition I embraced - in the last - stands firm … since Texas pretty much does its own thing, anyway - it'd be interesting to see how it might've worked out, had they not become a state ….

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

There is a sub genre of Science Fiction/Fantasy known as alternate history. Long ago I read one novel in which Texas was still independent well into the mid 20th century.

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Oooh, that sounds interesting! …. Was it good? … What was it called, Robert?

Gilkar

Thank you for the personal reply The Adams -Jefferson one was the question I counted as ½. I didn't know the third on either.

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Ah, I see … but the question requires THREE answers - right? So, if you only got two - that's two thirds - yes? … Not really half!!!!

So, add that to your total … it may not be much of an adjustment - but ….

Sunnely Loc: Wisconsin

To All,

Hope you guys had an enjoyable and safe July 4th celebration.

Thanks to all who took the trivia quiz. I apologize for the error about Thomas (James Monroe). History and Math were never my forte when I was in school, eons ago. But, now with my brain cells slowly eroding, I must try, should never give in, and never give up.

I also thank all for the info I learned and discussion of US History in particular, robertjerl and
Chris T. Wow! You guys are a wealth of information.

Now, on to the nation's next big celebration - the 50th Anniversary of Chasing The Moon (Apollo 11 moon landing). Incidentally, PBS will be showing the premiere of "Chasing The Moon," on July 8-10. It is a new six-hour series about the space race, from its earliest beginnings to the monumental achievement of the first lunar landing in 1969 and beyond. Check your local time for details.

Again, thanks to all.

Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England

Sunnely - thanks for the praise on my somewhat incomplete knowledge of the era. It's really Robert who knew most of it. Also, thanks for the tip on the upcoming PBS Celebration of the 50th Anniversary of the Moon Landing!!! … Seems like it was only yesterday - huh? … Several generations, ago, now !!!!

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

Long time ago, don't remember but the Texas Gvt had become a police state with their Gestapo eqiv being called the "Sky Shirts" or something like that for their sky blue uniform shirts. And the US+other nations of No. America were at war with them.

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

NASA has a long term plan to return to the moon and build a manned base. Their goal is said to be 2024.