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Pro Photo working color space.
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May 25, 2019 22:05:55   #
Jerry G Loc: Waterford, Michigan and Florida
 
Pro Photo color space (rommRGB)is a very large color space, much larger than AdobeRGB. I have read a couple of articles saying you should use it when post processing. I'm sure I am missing something but why use a color space your monitor can't display and your printer can't print. Wouldn't it be better to use the same color space from camera to print?

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May 25, 2019 22:26:00   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Jerry G wrote:
Pro Photo color space (rommRGB)is a very large color space, much larger than AdobeRGB. I have read a couple of articles saying you should use it when post processing. I'm sure I am missing something but why use a color space your monitor can't display and your printer can't print. Wouldn't it be better to use the same color space from camera to print?

Wouldn't it depend on your print supplier being able to accommodate the color space you used?
Most all print suppliers handle sRGB. Web display likes sRBG. Seems to be the most common color space so far.

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May 26, 2019 07:23:39   #
mkahn
 
Think of it as the difference in editing a RAW file versus a JPEG. Although the space is larger than you can see, editing the image reduces the range. If you are editing in sRGB, you are only reducing the color space or sending a color beyond the color space. Multiple edits may further reduce the image quality. I use Lightroom and that works with the Pro Photo space. If I export to another editing program, I continue to use Pro Photo. When I finally export to print or web, I set the space to sRGB or the largest color space the printer is able to produce.

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May 26, 2019 08:24:46   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
Longshadow wrote:
Wouldn't it depend on your print supplier being able to accommodate the color space you used?
Most all print suppliers handle sRGB. Web display likes sRBG. Seems to be the most common color space so far.

Actually, having been in the print/publishing industry for 35 years, printers will take pretty much any non-CYMK color space and convert it to CYMK. As one will learn if one self-publishes a book, though, CYMK color space is not as brilliant in color as RGB. Fortunately, Photoshop supplies lots of methods (Image>Adjustments>Hue/Saturation and its submenus, and
Image>Adjustments>Color Balance and its submenus)
to adjust the color so that the CYMK color comes very close to the RGB color.

I'm currently in the process of doing the final editing and design layout for a 3-time author. His fourth book is 356 pages and has 1,367 photographs in it. His previous publisher charged a lot of money to print his books, of the same size and picture numbers, so he finally found a less expensive printer. Unfortunately, the less expensive printer is in Thailand, and they don't cater to doing everything for their customers. They have a very nice "Digital Data Creation" handbook that explains in great detail how to do the things that North American and European printers will do for you, albeit while charging you for doing it.

Yeah, he's saving money on the actual printing, but as I pointed out to him, you're paying me to do what your American publisher used to charge you to do. He likes my work, though. Fortunate for me because I'm in my retirement years, and retirement is not all its cracked up to be, even if one is financial secure.

Ultimately, the total cost of getting this book printed will be exactly the same as his three previous books.

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May 26, 2019 09:24:09   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Where one has an interest, they should google "prophoto rgb". There's plenty of available discussion, both high-level and quite technical. Some results from this google search will have interesting 2D and 3D diagrams of the various overlapping colorspaces. Others have examples of pixelation of blues of the sky as you edit in colorspaces with less coverage of these colors. Here's a link based on text and diagrams: https://luminous-landscape.com/understanding-prophoto-rgb/

If you step away from the highly technical 'why' of PhotoPro RGB and instead focus on the 'how', the advice becomes more practical. When you post-process your images, you have to choose which working space you’re in. This is the colorspace selection that your post-processing software then restricts you to use; no edit you make can lead to a color found outside your chosen working space. Therefore, as a general best practice for the RAW photographer, it is ideal that your working space is ProPhoto RGB when you edit your RAW images. That’s because RAW photos often contain colors outside of both sRGB and Adobe RGB color spaces, especially in high-saturation shadow regions. If you specify sRGB as your working space, you’ll automatically clip any colors that fall outside the sRGB range for every photo you edit. (Some software, like Lightroom, won’t even let you specify sRGB as your working space for this reason.)

BTW, colorspace is an attribute of the image editor and not the RAW image, so don't be concerned that ProPhoto RGB is not an option in the camera menu. If you shoot RAW and JPEG with the idea to use the JPEG SOOC as needed, use sRGB that creates your JPEGs ready to go and does no impact your RAW images, assuming you've configured your RAW editor to ProPhoto RGB. In the case of the JPEGs, your camera is the "image editor" outputting the files to the sRGB colorspace as appropriate for your web- and file-sharing needs.

It seems many UHHers use Adobe Camera RAW or Lightroom for their initial edits, then open the image in Photoshop for finishing. But, have they confirmed their export settings are creating images files in the ProPhoto RGB colorspace? If they review their setting and find 'no' for the ProPhoto RGB, they are likely using the sRGB or Adobe RGB working spaces, not realizing they are clipping colors when they go to PhotoShop or other tools to "finish" the image, aka 'discarding' lots of color data from the RAW file. To confirm and possibly correct: a) click on the blue link at the bottom of Camera RAW and change the images to ProPhoto, 16-bit. Or b) in Lightroom, go to Lightroom > External Editing > File Format = TIFF, Color Space ProPhoto, Bit Depth 16.

And finally, now that all your RAW / TIFF editing tools have been set to edit in ProPhoto RGB, you have an additional step when exporting JPEG images from Photoshop or LR to the web: converting them to sRGB. The absence of performing this additional step has become epidemic of late on UHH. See regular references to 'uncalibrated colorspace' and the drab appearance of colors of posted images. This final colorspace conversion step is rather easy to do with Edit > Convert to Profile > sRGB. Converting to sRGB for web images is essential; don’t let a ProPhoto image loose on the world where all your images look embarrassing drab when presented in browsers that expect sRGB.

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May 26, 2019 09:51:21   #
jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ
 
Jerry G wrote:
Pro Photo color space (rommRGB)is a very large color space, much larger than AdobeRGB. I have read a couple of articles saying you should use it when post processing. I'm sure I am missing something but why use a color space your monitor can't display and your printer can't print. Wouldn't it be better to use the same color space from camera to print?


Do you shoot in raw? If so, don't worry about color space and just edit your raw images in a raw editor, then if you need pixel editing use a 16-bit editor like Photoshop. If you use Adobe Photoshop Elements, you'll be editing mostly in 8-bit color and might not be getting the most out of your images. If you use a print lab, don't worry about color space, just save the images as jpg and sRGB. If you upload to the internet or social media, use sRGB.

But if you shoot in jpg, use the best RGB your camera has. I've never heard of rommRGB. My cameras will shoot jpg's in ProPhotoRGB which is the highest color space there is. Second is AdobeRGB and third is sRGB.

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May 26, 2019 09:51:33   #
via the lens Loc: Northern California, near Yosemite NP
 
Jerry G wrote:
Pro Photo color space (rommRGB)is a very large color space, much larger than AdobeRGB. I have read a couple of articles saying you should use it when post processing. I'm sure I am missing something but why use a color space your monitor can't display and your printer can't print. Wouldn't it be better to use the same color space from camera to print?


For LR, the Development module uses ProPhoto. I've set all my processing programs to this color space. It allows me to process using the most tones in the photo that can be found, so to speak. Photography is about tones.

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May 26, 2019 10:31:40   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Jerry G wrote:
Pro Photo color space (rommRGB)is a very large color space, much larger than AdobeRGB. I have read a couple of articles saying you should use it when post processing. I'm sure I am missing something but why use a color space your monitor can't display and your printer can't print. Wouldn't it be better to use the same color space from camera to print?


No...

Think of ProPhoto RGB as a CONNECTION or WORKING color space. It is the only profile in common use that can contain ALL the colors your sensor might capture.

As you process the raw data into a real bitmap image, the controls in your software can “bend” or “pull” some of those “unseeable” colors back into the range your monitor can display or your printer or lab can print. You can confirm this by using proofing profiles and gamut warnings.

Admittedly, it can’t help a JPEG, but it can’t hurt it, either. It’s meant to provide maximum flexibility in developing raw files.

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May 26, 2019 11:26:22   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
Longshadow wrote:
Wouldn't it depend on your print supplier being able to accommodate the color space you used?
Most all print suppliers handle sRGB. Web display likes sRBG. Seems to be the most common color space so far.


Not true, most all of commercial printing, postprocessing, well the whole workflow is done, using RGB pro, because of the obvious benefits in latitude!

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May 26, 2019 11:31:43   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
speters wrote:
Not true, most all of commercial printing, postprocessing, well the whole workflow is done, using RGB pro, because of the obvious benefits in latitude!

Interesting, RGB pro, as well as ProPhotoRGB, are new to me.
(I just send sRGB to Costco....)

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May 26, 2019 11:46:49   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
Longshadow wrote:
Interesting, RGB pro, as well as ProPhotoRGB, are new to me.
(I just send sRGB to Costco....)


As far as I know, Costco was never involved into any commercial printing!

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May 26, 2019 12:22:36   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Longshadow wrote:
Interesting, RGB pro, as well as ProPhotoRGB, are new to me.
(I just send sRGB to Costco....)


Your camera has its own profile. When you process a JPEG IN THE CAMERA, the camera saves the file to whatever you can choose in your menu (usually either sRGB, or Adobe RGB).

When you save a raw data file in the camera, your post-processing software has to apply a profile to it when you open it. Opening a file creates a bitmap image in memory. The software or OS then converts the image from that camera profile to your working space or connection space profile. From the working space, it converts the bitmap image to your monitor profile, so you can see it. When you export or save a file, you can choose to convert it to a specific profile. Commonly:

> sRGB is used as the standard for Internet images.

> sRGB is accepted as the default by nearly all silver-halide based photo labs (those who print on traditional, wet-process, light sensitive photo papers).

> Adobe RGB is an option at SOME photo labs (usually pro labs). It has a bit wider gamut (can reproduce more saturated colors) than sRGB. Whether much of that gamut can be reproduced on photo paper is up to the combination of photo paper and printer used by the lab.

> Adobe RGB is an option at SOME offset litho printers and gravure print houses, and may be a requirement at others. They usually want this profile because they don't trust photographers to use calibrated monitors or to know much about color management or offset printing systems, so they want the slight edge in latitude that Adobe RGB provides for adjustment to their paper and press conditions. Their dirty little secret?* They print color separations using CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black inks), a process which has an even more limited color gamut than sRGB.

(*How do I know this? As a former member of DIMA and PMAI (Digital Imaging Marketing Association and Photo Marketing Association International, now defunct trade groups that merged into PMA@CES and others), I heard industry experts explain it at trade show panel discussions and training sessions. I also worked for a yearbook printer and pro photo lab, where I saw it in action.)

> ProPhoto RGB, ROMM RGB, and Melissa RGB, are all extremely wide color gamuts that are primarily useful for preserving maximum data in 16-bit images shared between or among post-processing applications. For instance, when I send a file from Lightroom Classic to Photoshop CC 2019, I use ProPhoto RGB. The only time it gets converted to something else is when I export the file from Lightroom, or possibly save the file from Photoshop, or print it to a locally connected printer.

> Very advanced photographers, ad agencies, and fine art museums use a "closed loop" printing system of sorts. They:

> Convert the raw file from the camera to its camera color space (in something like Lightroom).

> Manipulate the file entirely in ProPhoto RGB or similar (possibly in several different applications).

> Print to a high-end inkjet photo printer, doing the conversion from 16-bit ProPhoto RGB to a 16-bit printer driver, and applying the printer/paper/ink device profile "on the fly" at time of printing. This preserves the maximum possible printed color gamut from point of click (photography) to point off clunk (the print landing in the receiving basket under the wide format printer).

MOST people are best off saving or exporting images in sRGB, most of the time. It takes a really good, wide-gamut monitor and a 10-bit graphics card, plus a hardware/software color calibration kit and a lot of discipline, to reap the benefits of a system for Adobe RGB image processing, evaluation, and usage.

Folks, if you want to make a real difference in the quality of your work, calibrate your monitor with a hardware device (colorimeter or spectrophotometer) and custom profile it with a hardware/software kit from Datacolor or X-Rite). If your monitor doesn't display accurate color, none of the benefits of color management or color adjustment are certain. You have to SEE what's in your files to manipulate it predictably.

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May 26, 2019 12:26:42   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
burkphoto wrote:
Your camera has its own profile. When you process a JPEG IN THE CAMERA, the camera saves the file to whatever you can choose in your menu (usually either sRGB, or Adobe RGB).

When you save a raw data file in the camera, your post-processing software has to apply a profile to it when you open it. Opening a file creates a bitmap image in memory. The software or OS then converts the image from that camera profile to your working space or connection space profile. From the working space, it converts the bitmap image to your monitor profile, so you can see it. When you export or save a file, you can choose to convert it to a specific profile. Commonly:

> sRGB is used as the standard for Internet images.

> sRGB is accepted as the default by nearly all silver-halide based photo labs (those who print on traditional, wet-process, light sensitive photo papers).

> Adobe RGB is an option at SOME photo labs (usually pro labs). It has a bit wider gamut (can reproduce more saturated colors) than sRGB. Whether much of that gamut can be reproduced on photo paper is up to the combination of photo paper and printer used by the lab.

> Adobe RGB is an option at SOME offset litho printers and gravure print houses, and may be a requirement at others. They usually want this profile because they don't trust photographers to use calibrated monitors or to know much about color management or offset printing systems, so they want the slight edge in latitude that Adobe RGB provides for adjustment to their paper and press conditions. Their dirty little secret?* They print color separations using CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black inks), a process which has an even more limited color gamut than sRGB.

(*How do I know this? As a former member of DIMA and PMAI (Digital Imaging Marketing Association and Photo Marketing Association International, now defunct trade groups that merged into PMA@CES and others), I heard industry experts explain it at trade show panel discussions and training sessions. I also worked for a yearbook printer and pro photo lab, where I saw it in action.)

> ProPhoto RGB, ROMM RGB, and Melissa RGB, are all extremely wide color gamuts that are primarily useful for preserving maximum data in 16-bit images shared between or among post-processing applications. For instance, when I send a file from Lightroom Classic to Photoshop CC 2019, I use ProPhoto RGB. The only time it gets converted to something else is when I export the file from Lightroom, or possibly save the file from Photoshop, or print it to a locally connected printer.

> Very advanced photographers, ad agencies, and fine art museums use a "closed loop" printing system of sorts. They:

> Convert the raw file from the camera to its camera color space (in something like Lightroom).

> Manipulate the file entirely in ProPhoto RGB or similar (possibly in several different applications).

> Print to a high-end inkjet photo printer, doing the conversion from 16-bit ProPhoto RGB to a 16-bit printer driver, and applying the printer/paper/ink device profile "on the fly" at time of printing. This preserves the maximum possible printed color gamut from point of click (photography) to point off clunk (the print landing in the receiving basket under the wide format printer).

MOST people are best off saving or exporting images in sRGB, most of the time. It takes a really good, wide-gamut monitor and a 10-bit graphics card, plus a hardware/software color calibration kit and a lot of discipline, to reap the benefits of a system for Adobe RGB image processing, evaluation, and usage.

Folks, if you want to make a real difference in the quality of your work, calibrate your monitor with a hardware device (colorimeter or spectrophotometer) and custom profile it with a hardware/software kit from Datacolor or X-Rite). If your monitor doesn't display accurate color, none of the benefits of color management or color adjustment are certain. You have to SEE what's in your files to manipulate it predictably.
Your camera has its own profile. When you process ... (show quote)


I selected sRGB in both cameras.

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May 26, 2019 12:34:52   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Longshadow wrote:
I selected sRGB in both cameras.


Generally a wise choice if you record JPEGs from your camera.

Know that the profile choice in your camera menu ONLY affects JPEGs. Every raw file contains a very small PREVIEW JPEG. It is also processed using whatever your menu setting is.

BUT, the raw file data digitized from the sensor has NO profile in it. It must be interpreted when processed on your computer. If you use camera manufacturer's software to open the file, it MAY apply the same settings from your camera menus as a default, unless you change the default. And most certainly, it uses the camera manufacturer's profile for that model camera, which usually has ALL the camera company's secret sauce color science in it.

If you use third party software such as ACR in Lightroom, Bridge, or Photoshop, that software applies *its own* default camera profile. You can change the default for that profile, too, if you want a different look. But it's all based on a profile reverse engineered by Adobe.

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May 26, 2019 12:38:38   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
burkphoto wrote:
Generally a wise choice if you record JPEGs from your camera.

Know that the profile choice in your camera menu ONLY affects JPEGs. Every raw file contains a very small PREVIEW JPEG. It is also processed using whatever your menu setting is.

BUT, the raw file data digitized from the sensor has NO profile in it. It must be interpreted when processed on your computer. If you use camera manufacturer's software to open the file, it MAY apply the same settings from your camera menus as a default, unless you change the default. And most certainly, it uses the camera manufacturer's profile for that model camera, which usually has ALL the camera company's secret sauce color science in it.

If you use third party software such as ACR in Lightroom, Bridge, or Photoshop, that software applies *its own* default camera profile. You can change the default for that profile, too, if you want a different look. But it's all based on a profile reverse engineered by Adobe.
Generally a wise choice if you record JPEGs from y... (show quote)

Not sure, I believe my editors are set to sRGB or RGB also.

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