Bad Photo! with picture
Mar 17, 2019 03:23:08 #
Timmers
Loc: San Antonio Texas.
I will go ahead and say this, so remain calm. Polarizers do not remove reflections. What? It is true, a polarizer will on your lens will not remove reflections. Every photographer needs to learn this fact. So, go stand in front of a mirror and look through your polarizing filter and try to remove the reflection in the mirror, you will not remove the reflection and mirrors do reflect your image.
Now you know that a polarizer will not remove reflections, go outside and look at tree leaves (I know, it's winter so you in snow land will need to look closely at other surfaces), but if you have leaves then put the sun to one side or over your shoulder and look at the leaves. See the bright reflection of sunlight on the surface of the leaves. Now hold the polarizer up to your eye and rotate the glass and watch the polarizer reduce and remove the sheen of sunlight being reflected back to your eye, thus reducing the high lights of raw light on the leaves. Note that the leaves remain but now the sunlight is under your control. This is what polarizers do.
Now go find a car with some chromed surface on it. See that the reflection in the chrome (mirror polished surface) is not effected by the polarizer but the high sheen on the polished paint has contours that the sunlight on these surfaces will be reduced and areas will have these surfaces sending back some or most of the sunlight.
Now go back and find your large glass surface that is showing the high lights on that glass surface. Set up the camera on a stand is the best idea. With a separate horizontal bar attached to a studio stand. To this is added a large sheet of MATT BLACK cloth that is attached to that studio stand. Generally it is best to make a hole about mid way in the center of the cloth. You then arrange the stand to completely cover the tripod stand and the studio stand holding the cloth. Standing behind the black cloth you make the photograph.
Setting up the tripod for a commercial shoot. The tripod should hold the camera so that when the center column is fully extended it will put the camera lens at what is standard viewing elevation, this is about 52 inches from the floor. This is the view preferred by architectural photography. A good tripod is one that when you lower the center column all the way down will give you a view that represents a seated view. The seated view is what an interior designer wants. When shooting you should always make both positional views, seated and standing.
In addition, designers generally want a subject in the view, while the architect want no persons in a scene.
Now, if you truly want to take on the technical nightmare you can set up all the light sources to be polarized. In the case of a window there are large rolls of polarizing gels. The lights illuminating the set ALL need to be polarized as well. You align the direction of the polarizing gels to be in the same directional orientation. When you place the polarizer on the lens you then rotate the lens polarizer so it is at 90 degrees to the other polarizing gets.
Esperance will teach you that a polarized scene looks odd to the eye. It is best to slightly de-polarize the lens a smidge to allow some reflections to return. But the totally pro approach is to use strip lights (aquarium lamps, clear or frosted) and sparkly tiny Christmas tree lights to 'pop' controlled high lights back into the scene.
For this type of quick set drape a black cloth on a stand and tripod for the camera is the best to get it done quickly.
Also, the black cloth in front of the camera/lens is the standard way to shoot glass framed art and heavily glazed objects/paintings. Polarizers are to be avoided as they will often effect the under surface of an art work and so render a view that is not correct for viewing the final art work. Art work that is a product of stone or rota gravure type printing usually requires 1/3 to 1/2 stop lighter exposure than what would be the correct exposure.
Now you know that a polarizer will not remove reflections, go outside and look at tree leaves (I know, it's winter so you in snow land will need to look closely at other surfaces), but if you have leaves then put the sun to one side or over your shoulder and look at the leaves. See the bright reflection of sunlight on the surface of the leaves. Now hold the polarizer up to your eye and rotate the glass and watch the polarizer reduce and remove the sheen of sunlight being reflected back to your eye, thus reducing the high lights of raw light on the leaves. Note that the leaves remain but now the sunlight is under your control. This is what polarizers do.
Now go find a car with some chromed surface on it. See that the reflection in the chrome (mirror polished surface) is not effected by the polarizer but the high sheen on the polished paint has contours that the sunlight on these surfaces will be reduced and areas will have these surfaces sending back some or most of the sunlight.
Now go back and find your large glass surface that is showing the high lights on that glass surface. Set up the camera on a stand is the best idea. With a separate horizontal bar attached to a studio stand. To this is added a large sheet of MATT BLACK cloth that is attached to that studio stand. Generally it is best to make a hole about mid way in the center of the cloth. You then arrange the stand to completely cover the tripod stand and the studio stand holding the cloth. Standing behind the black cloth you make the photograph.
Setting up the tripod for a commercial shoot. The tripod should hold the camera so that when the center column is fully extended it will put the camera lens at what is standard viewing elevation, this is about 52 inches from the floor. This is the view preferred by architectural photography. A good tripod is one that when you lower the center column all the way down will give you a view that represents a seated view. The seated view is what an interior designer wants. When shooting you should always make both positional views, seated and standing.
In addition, designers generally want a subject in the view, while the architect want no persons in a scene.
Now, if you truly want to take on the technical nightmare you can set up all the light sources to be polarized. In the case of a window there are large rolls of polarizing gels. The lights illuminating the set ALL need to be polarized as well. You align the direction of the polarizing gels to be in the same directional orientation. When you place the polarizer on the lens you then rotate the lens polarizer so it is at 90 degrees to the other polarizing gets.
Esperance will teach you that a polarized scene looks odd to the eye. It is best to slightly de-polarize the lens a smidge to allow some reflections to return. But the totally pro approach is to use strip lights (aquarium lamps, clear or frosted) and sparkly tiny Christmas tree lights to 'pop' controlled high lights back into the scene.
For this type of quick set drape a black cloth on a stand and tripod for the camera is the best to get it done quickly.
Also, the black cloth in front of the camera/lens is the standard way to shoot glass framed art and heavily glazed objects/paintings. Polarizers are to be avoided as they will often effect the under surface of an art work and so render a view that is not correct for viewing the final art work. Art work that is a product of stone or rota gravure type printing usually requires 1/3 to 1/2 stop lighter exposure than what would be the correct exposure.
Mar 17, 2019 10:22:47 #
catchlight..
Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
Polarizing Lens... QUOTE from Wikipedia
Light reflected from a non-metallic surface becomes polarized; this effect is maximum at Brewster's angle, about 56° from the vertical for common glass. A polarizer rotated to pass only light polarized in the direction perpendicular to the reflected light will absorb much of it. This absorption allows glare reflected from, for example, a body of water or a road to be reduced. Reflections from shiny surfaces (e.g. vegetation, sweaty skin, water surfaces, glass) are also reduced. This allows the natural color and detail of what is beneath to come through. Reflections from a window into a dark interior can be much reduced, allowing it to be seen through. (The same effects are available for vision by using polarizing sunglasses.
I am an automotive editor / photojournalist for several major magazines and use a polarizing lens for 95% of my work. Please don't pass on bad information, but if you are qualified and have good information with credentials do that but post appropriate sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizing_filter_(photography)
Light reflected from a non-metallic surface becomes polarized; this effect is maximum at Brewster's angle, about 56° from the vertical for common glass. A polarizer rotated to pass only light polarized in the direction perpendicular to the reflected light will absorb much of it. This absorption allows glare reflected from, for example, a body of water or a road to be reduced. Reflections from shiny surfaces (e.g. vegetation, sweaty skin, water surfaces, glass) are also reduced. This allows the natural color and detail of what is beneath to come through. Reflections from a window into a dark interior can be much reduced, allowing it to be seen through. (The same effects are available for vision by using polarizing sunglasses.
I am an automotive editor / photojournalist for several major magazines and use a polarizing lens for 95% of my work. Please don't pass on bad information, but if you are qualified and have good information with credentials do that but post appropriate sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizing_filter_(photography)
Mar 17, 2019 10:45:10 #
Timmers
Loc: San Antonio Texas.
catchlight.. wrote:
Polarizing Lens... QUOTE from Wikipedia br br Lig... (show quote)
Dear Heart, like many you become lost in the technical descriptions and loose sight of what is important. A polarizing optic effects glare, it is glare that it can control, it does not control reflections. Reflections can be seen in a mirror or the surface of water. But that reflected light is glare. To use your tools properly one needs to understand those tools. Polarizers do not control reflections, it controls glare on a surface.
By the way, while we are beating on each other, take this into your tool box, a polarizer is NOT a filter, it is an attenuator. Referencing with 'polarizing lens' confuses the subject further, call it at a polarizer optical flat but I'm not sure what 'polarizing lens' you are referring to with your work.
By the way, your referring to a source that begins with a title statement calling a polarizer a 'filter' is the reason why this subject becomes confused, polarizers only association to the action of a filter is in certain areas of 'light' in that it will absorb ultra violet and minor areas of the infrared, but these are properties of the glass in general manufacturing production.
I hope that helps to clarify that the statement that polarizers are used in general photographic practices to control GLARE and not reflections.
Mar 17, 2019 10:53:12 #
catchlight..
Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/polarizing-filters.htm QUOTE:
CAMERA POLARIZING FILTERS
Polarizing filters can increase color saturation and decrease reflections — and are one of the only lens filters which cannot be replicated using digital photo editing. They are an indispensable tool that should be in every photographer's camera bag. However, developing an intuition for how a polarizer might impact a photo often requires extensive experimentation. This tutorial aims to accelerate that process by demonstrating how and why polarizing filters can help — and in some cases harm — different types of scenes.
You are incorrect. If you have the qualifications and can demonstrate your ideas that oppose known fact, please continue.
https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/polarizing-filters.htm
CAMERA POLARIZING FILTERS
Polarizing filters can increase color saturation and decrease reflections — and are one of the only lens filters which cannot be replicated using digital photo editing. They are an indispensable tool that should be in every photographer's camera bag. However, developing an intuition for how a polarizer might impact a photo often requires extensive experimentation. This tutorial aims to accelerate that process by demonstrating how and why polarizing filters can help — and in some cases harm — different types of scenes.
You are incorrect. If you have the qualifications and can demonstrate your ideas that oppose known fact, please continue.
https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/polarizing-filters.htm
Mar 17, 2019 15:33:04 #
Theory vs. Practice:
There have been many theoretical solutions posted as suggestions for the OP, but very few of them are practical and some are incorrect. It's sometimes a matter of too many "Generals" not enough "Foot Soldiers" or book learned knowledge vs. front line experience.
There are many theoretical and practical methodologies that are applicable to very controlled circumstances such as studio-conditions or elaborate location setups that require hours or days of preparation to create ideal lighting and access to the subject. A room setting can be replicated in a studio where there is no space confining walls or a truckload of equipment- lights, large gobos and a digitized view camera with a full complement of shifts and tilts can be brought to the location and everything can be perfected. This is ideal if you are shooting for a nationally advertised product or service or shooting a layout for the Architectural Digest Magazine and the budget exists for this kinda production.
As a working commercial photographer, I occasionally get jobs like the aforementioned but the usual workaday interior projects are much like what the OP has described. We get to the location, there is limited time, the place is someone's home- we can't take the walls down and we have an hour to get in and out. The pace is made of chrome, glass, mirrors, ceramic tile, and glass or God knows what else and we have to work by the seat of our pants with whatever equipment we have. So let's be practical and analyze some of the conversations.
Gobos and tents: It's easy enough to set up gobos and tents around a small product but to block off a large window and avoid a reflection in a piece of plate glass the size of a bath enclosure, you will need several large black panels or perhaps a roll of black seamless background paper. - great, if you have them on hand and time to construct such a setup. A black or white panel with a hole for the lens?- again it's got to be BIG- look at the area you are dealing with, the size of the reflective surface and the ambient light in the room? That's' easy enough with a chrome plated pop-up toaster or some stainless steel cutlery.- a bathroom?- not that workable. Think of the proportions!
So... you gotta be McGivor and use your front-line savvy and understand the angle of incidence principles and work around the bad reflections. First of all you have to be observant and SEE the issues- if you just shoot haphazardly you are out of luck before you start. Folks sometimes underrate wedding photographers but as a long time weekend wedding guy, shooting in venues with smoke-glass mirrored walls and shooting that good old shot of the bride primping in the mirror, the first you learn is to shoot at an oblique angle to the glass. You learn where to place your lights haw and not include your equipment yourself in the image- unless you are Alfred Hitchcock!
POLARIZING FILTERS. What's all this controversy about these things? I got my first polarizing filter when I was 12 years old and they are damn handy but the ain't magic and you have to know how and when to use them. They are certainly not a magic cure-all to all reflectivity issues but if the angle of incidence is right they can mitigate or negate some unwanted reflections. You don't even need to understand all the science, geometry, trigonometry, and technology- you just pop it on the lens, look through the viewfinder, rotate the filter and see all or some of the reflection disappear -OR NOT and decide what to do. Sometimes it removes too much and makes windows or water go black. You get to decide how much of the effect you want and if it ain't working at all, you will find out immediately. Yes- it's gonna cost you a few f/stops but you are photographing a bathroom, it ain't moving around, so you can extend the exposure time and compensate with your shutter speed. I hope you don't forget your tripod! If you have a good quality CPL filter it won't drastically alter the color balance. There so much propaganda out there about the latest and greatest CPL filters that don't affect color. If you are worried, go out and buy one. My B+W and Sing-Ray Polarizers are old as dirt and they never affect my color balance. I fine tune my color balance in post anyway.
How many of us have successfully shot displays in a storefront window, showcases, dioramas in museums, glass enclosure at the zoo or the tanks at the aquarium and had perfect results with a good old CPL filter?
Again- more off-topic theory- from the posters- We ain't photographing artwork in a museum- it's a "toilet"- excuse my Brooklynese term for the bathroom! Besides, I photograph artwork for museums, archives, collectors, and folks who evaluate works of art for a living and I always use polarized light sources and filters. Yes, sometimes it cuts through haze and cracks in the varnish but there are ways of including those if necessary for documentary reasons. It works well with the pallet knife and bas relief works as well- it's known as interpretive copy lighting. When I started taking in this kinda work back in the 1980s, I consulted with the guy who was doing all that work for Memorial Art Gallery in Rochester and learn the techniques. If you are photographing sculpture or other artifacts, you may or may not want to incorporate polarizing filters or polarized light sources. If the reflections are required to mention dimension or modeling, you need to include them. It becomes a matter of common sense, perception and using the old eyeballs.
Equipment wise, it is advisable to equip ourselves for the work we usually do. If you are a full-time architectural or high-end real-estate shooter, it certainly pays to have a full complement of wide angle and perspective control lenses. I actually have some of that gear and over the years, I have amassed that truckload of lighting gear, however, there are jobs that just can't accommodate that kind of time and budget. What's more, it's oftentimes that the ambient lighting in a given interior setting is part of the mood and design and overpowering it with a virtual "movie set" is counterproductive. Sometimes the existing light with just a bit of augmentation for a fill or accent light or two is appropriate and sufficient to bring back a great image. I have come to a location with all my heavy lights an all I did was bounce a Speedlight or an old quartz-halogen unit off a ceiling and back wall for a perfect mood.
If we go back to the OP's issue, I'm sure he will use this as a learning experience. Doing thigs in haste makes waste for sure. The time you save is a bad economy because you end up putting in more time in trying to correct problematic elements in lengthy and tedious post-processing efforts and this never looks as good as a well originally photographed image. Then there is the disappointment and aggravation that no money will compensate for. Sometimes the time I spend explaining this to potential clients is more important than the time spent on the job. There is no logical reason for rushing. There is no logical reason for not allowing enough time for exploring a few other camera position and viewpoints. Excuse my vernacular again but it's a toilet, a bathtub, a shower stall, a fireplace, a living room, a bedroom, a den or a kitchen, it's not a riot, fleeting wildlife, we are no gonna lose the light or trying to capture a sunset, it's not a clandestine photojournalistic assignment in a war zone. Theses are static objects- the call some of commercial photography STILL life for a reason- because it stays still! TAKE THE TIME!
There have been many theoretical solutions posted as suggestions for the OP, but very few of them are practical and some are incorrect. It's sometimes a matter of too many "Generals" not enough "Foot Soldiers" or book learned knowledge vs. front line experience.
There are many theoretical and practical methodologies that are applicable to very controlled circumstances such as studio-conditions or elaborate location setups that require hours or days of preparation to create ideal lighting and access to the subject. A room setting can be replicated in a studio where there is no space confining walls or a truckload of equipment- lights, large gobos and a digitized view camera with a full complement of shifts and tilts can be brought to the location and everything can be perfected. This is ideal if you are shooting for a nationally advertised product or service or shooting a layout for the Architectural Digest Magazine and the budget exists for this kinda production.
As a working commercial photographer, I occasionally get jobs like the aforementioned but the usual workaday interior projects are much like what the OP has described. We get to the location, there is limited time, the place is someone's home- we can't take the walls down and we have an hour to get in and out. The pace is made of chrome, glass, mirrors, ceramic tile, and glass or God knows what else and we have to work by the seat of our pants with whatever equipment we have. So let's be practical and analyze some of the conversations.
Gobos and tents: It's easy enough to set up gobos and tents around a small product but to block off a large window and avoid a reflection in a piece of plate glass the size of a bath enclosure, you will need several large black panels or perhaps a roll of black seamless background paper. - great, if you have them on hand and time to construct such a setup. A black or white panel with a hole for the lens?- again it's got to be BIG- look at the area you are dealing with, the size of the reflective surface and the ambient light in the room? That's' easy enough with a chrome plated pop-up toaster or some stainless steel cutlery.- a bathroom?- not that workable. Think of the proportions!
So... you gotta be McGivor and use your front-line savvy and understand the angle of incidence principles and work around the bad reflections. First of all you have to be observant and SEE the issues- if you just shoot haphazardly you are out of luck before you start. Folks sometimes underrate wedding photographers but as a long time weekend wedding guy, shooting in venues with smoke-glass mirrored walls and shooting that good old shot of the bride primping in the mirror, the first you learn is to shoot at an oblique angle to the glass. You learn where to place your lights haw and not include your equipment yourself in the image- unless you are Alfred Hitchcock!
POLARIZING FILTERS. What's all this controversy about these things? I got my first polarizing filter when I was 12 years old and they are damn handy but the ain't magic and you have to know how and when to use them. They are certainly not a magic cure-all to all reflectivity issues but if the angle of incidence is right they can mitigate or negate some unwanted reflections. You don't even need to understand all the science, geometry, trigonometry, and technology- you just pop it on the lens, look through the viewfinder, rotate the filter and see all or some of the reflection disappear -OR NOT and decide what to do. Sometimes it removes too much and makes windows or water go black. You get to decide how much of the effect you want and if it ain't working at all, you will find out immediately. Yes- it's gonna cost you a few f/stops but you are photographing a bathroom, it ain't moving around, so you can extend the exposure time and compensate with your shutter speed. I hope you don't forget your tripod! If you have a good quality CPL filter it won't drastically alter the color balance. There so much propaganda out there about the latest and greatest CPL filters that don't affect color. If you are worried, go out and buy one. My B+W and Sing-Ray Polarizers are old as dirt and they never affect my color balance. I fine tune my color balance in post anyway.
How many of us have successfully shot displays in a storefront window, showcases, dioramas in museums, glass enclosure at the zoo or the tanks at the aquarium and had perfect results with a good old CPL filter?
Again- more off-topic theory- from the posters- We ain't photographing artwork in a museum- it's a "toilet"- excuse my Brooklynese term for the bathroom! Besides, I photograph artwork for museums, archives, collectors, and folks who evaluate works of art for a living and I always use polarized light sources and filters. Yes, sometimes it cuts through haze and cracks in the varnish but there are ways of including those if necessary for documentary reasons. It works well with the pallet knife and bas relief works as well- it's known as interpretive copy lighting. When I started taking in this kinda work back in the 1980s, I consulted with the guy who was doing all that work for Memorial Art Gallery in Rochester and learn the techniques. If you are photographing sculpture or other artifacts, you may or may not want to incorporate polarizing filters or polarized light sources. If the reflections are required to mention dimension or modeling, you need to include them. It becomes a matter of common sense, perception and using the old eyeballs.
Equipment wise, it is advisable to equip ourselves for the work we usually do. If you are a full-time architectural or high-end real-estate shooter, it certainly pays to have a full complement of wide angle and perspective control lenses. I actually have some of that gear and over the years, I have amassed that truckload of lighting gear, however, there are jobs that just can't accommodate that kind of time and budget. What's more, it's oftentimes that the ambient lighting in a given interior setting is part of the mood and design and overpowering it with a virtual "movie set" is counterproductive. Sometimes the existing light with just a bit of augmentation for a fill or accent light or two is appropriate and sufficient to bring back a great image. I have come to a location with all my heavy lights an all I did was bounce a Speedlight or an old quartz-halogen unit off a ceiling and back wall for a perfect mood.
If we go back to the OP's issue, I'm sure he will use this as a learning experience. Doing thigs in haste makes waste for sure. The time you save is a bad economy because you end up putting in more time in trying to correct problematic elements in lengthy and tedious post-processing efforts and this never looks as good as a well originally photographed image. Then there is the disappointment and aggravation that no money will compensate for. Sometimes the time I spend explaining this to potential clients is more important than the time spent on the job. There is no logical reason for rushing. There is no logical reason for not allowing enough time for exploring a few other camera position and viewpoints. Excuse my vernacular again but it's a toilet, a bathtub, a shower stall, a fireplace, a living room, a bedroom, a den or a kitchen, it's not a riot, fleeting wildlife, we are no gonna lose the light or trying to capture a sunset, it's not a clandestine photojournalistic assignment in a war zone. Theses are static objects- the call some of commercial photography STILL life for a reason- because it stays still! TAKE THE TIME!
Mar 17, 2019 21:56:38 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Theory vs. Practice: . . .
Im sorry, wait! . . . What?? . . . Could you repeat that? . . .
.😆
Very well said sir 👍
This should be published somewhere.
Jun 2, 2019 16:57:53 #
kenArchi wrote:
Lot's of reflections. Have any of you have suggestions how to get rid of reflections.
I did use a CPL filter which reduced about 50%.
I did use a CPL filter which reduced about 50%.
Hi Ken! I deal with this all the time. Is it OK with you if I apply the Photoshop adjustments I would make to this image and upload for you? Just let me know. Mike
Jun 7, 2019 15:18:01 #
Nov 30, 2019 15:56:42 #
But the designer only gives a minute per photo. We went 4 houses and it was a mad rush of fifty total photos.[/quote]
If the designer doesn't like the results, ask him/her to shoot it themselves, and time each shot. If you tell the designer you can't shoot under this condition, them point out there's never time to do the job right, but always plenty of time to do it over.
If the designer doesn't like the results, ask him/her to shoot it themselves, and time each shot. If you tell the designer you can't shoot under this condition, them point out there's never time to do the job right, but always plenty of time to do it over.
Nov 30, 2019 16:02:44 #
Welcome to commercial photography- last week I had a "art director" hand me a layout for a refrigerator brochure with horizontal boxes for each tall refrigerators. Maybe he thought they were chest freezers?[/quote]
E L,
Do you remember Stan Freeberg and his satirical LP's? Think back to the history of the USA album, and the bit about Betsy Ross. She sings "Everybody want's to be an art director. Everybody wants to call the shots."
Think this is bad? I had a customer that I shot for regularly that expected me to identify OSHA violations in each photo and delete them. I learned a lot of useless knowledge.
E L,
Do you remember Stan Freeberg and his satirical LP's? Think back to the history of the USA album, and the bit about Betsy Ross. She sings "Everybody want's to be an art director. Everybody wants to call the shots."
Think this is bad? I had a customer that I shot for regularly that expected me to identify OSHA violations in each photo and delete them. I learned a lot of useless knowledge.
Apr 26, 2020 22:50:09 #
Apr 26, 2020 23:52:14 #
Najataagihe wrote:
Argh.
Old thread.
Old thread.
Getting older every day!
Apr 27, 2020 02:59:31 #
Timmers wrote:
....stand in front of a mirror and look through your polarizing filter and try to remove the reflection in the mirror, you will not remove the reflection and mirrors do reflect your image......
If you're looking in a mirror and seeing your reflection right in front of you, your line of sight is perpendicular to the mirror, so the angle of incidence and angle of reflection of the light are both 90°. On the other hand, if you're looking at a horizontal surface such as water and you're standing at the side of the water, the reflections that you see on the surface are created by light reflected at an oblique angle. You can call that type of reflection "glare" if you want, but it's still reflected light, and a polariser will reduce reflections like that from the surface of water.
One of the problems in the posted example is that the reflections from the glass are either perpendicular or close to it.
Apr 27, 2020 15:08:16 #
Steve V
Loc: New Jersey
DanielB wrote:
Open the glass door.
Have a model ( the designer) open the glass door. )
Jun 27, 2020 18:23:49 #
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