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I need some help....PLEASE!
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Aug 17, 2012 05:39:31   #
Spindrift62 Loc: Dorset, England. U.K.
 
Common sense at last!

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Aug 17, 2012 05:46:01   #
Zero_Equals_Infinity Loc: Canada
 
As already discussed it is not a hardware issue, but a physics one. Hence, the rule you have to live with is do not stop down further than about F10. Do not be concerned with the "recipe" just be aware of the physical limitations of smaller apertures.

Tilt-shift lenses are an ace in the photographer's sleave, because proper use of them can give you the equivalent of stopping down a normal lens further.

The things that are worth keeping from your instructor's class are notes on lighting, as good product photography is mostly about composition and lighting. That is why your results were great when all you did was reduced the aperture back to f9 or f10.

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Aug 17, 2012 05:50:22   #
Nikonian72 Loc: Chico CA
 
Spindrift62 wrote:
Common sense at last!
Please use the Quote Reply tab, so we all know to whom your comment is directed.

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Aug 17, 2012 07:17:40   #
BboH Loc: s of 2/21, Ellicott City, MD
 
Nothing to add - just posting so I'll get the follow up posts as they are added. This is quite fascinating.

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Aug 17, 2012 07:36:30   #
coondog Loc: Lost in Vermont
 
Interesting discussion...looking forward to the test results.

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Aug 17, 2012 07:41:59   #
IvanF Loc: New York City
 
I understand the problem from diffraction, but I don't see how the Jimberton gets noise at ISO 100.


jimberton wrote:
i went to a live seminar a few weeks ago on product photography. product photography is what i do 5 days a week at my great day job. the photographer was using a nikon d7000 with a 24-70mm 2.8 nikon lens. he stated that if you fill over 75% of the frame with the product to be shot...then you want the highest number fstop that your lens will do...such as f22...if you want everything in full focus. ok...makes sense, i thought.

he took some great product shots and had them printed there and passed them out. the shots were awesome. he was using 3 monostrobes.

so...today i am doing some product shots. i have 3 studio strobes. i set them up like he did. set the camera on iso100, f22 and shutter speed was 1/250. i even set the brightness of the strobes with a sekonic flash meter.

i have the 7d and the canon 24-70mm2.8 L glass, so i am similar to his setup. i have 3 strobes and they are set correctly with a flash meter......

i take the photos on a tripod with a remote shutter control. the photos are exposed correctly...but they have noise and are "soft".
now i don't usually take soft photos and product shots need to be sharp.....like i always take. the photos literally suck. the photos are really not usable for my caliber of product shots. and how did i get full of noise at iso100?? i get better at iso1600 at f5.6

i lowered the fstop to f8 and f10...the photos came out awesome...of course i had to dim the monostrobes to make the exposure proper.

so big question.......why at f22 did these photos come out soft? the only thing i can come up with is that my canon L lens is crap at f22. at f8 and f10 the shots are as sharp as anything out there.

i took shots of 23 different products and they all sucked at f22.

so, did this instructor really shoot at f22? if he did, he blew the canon equivalent right out of the ball field.

or is f22 a no no on a canon $1600 lens?

i would sure appreciate some discussion on this. for the first time, i am really disappointed in my gear.

i have been taking sharp product shots for the last 7 years soft is not an option.

i have never shot at f22 before.

thanks in advance.
jim
i went to a live seminar a few weeks ago on produc... (show quote)

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Aug 17, 2012 08:06:32   #
dwburns Loc: Fort Lauderdale
 
Mogul got a point,the photographer took some product shots and had them printed there and passed them out. photo look better printed then on a screen

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Aug 17, 2012 08:22:11   #
melismus Loc: Chesapeake Bay Country
 
I think we are discovering that what looked like noise was actually light scatter due to diffraction.

IvanF wrote:
I understand the problem from diffraction, but I don't see how the Jimberton gets noise at ISO 100.


jimberton wrote:
i went to a live seminar a few weeks ago on product photography. product photography is what i do 5 days a week at my great day job. the photographer was using a nikon d7000 with a 24-70mm 2.8 nikon lens. he stated that if you fill over 75% of the frame with the product to be shot...then you want the highest number fstop that your lens will do...such as f22...if you want everything in full focus. ok...makes sense, i thought.

he took some great product shots and had them printed there and passed them out. the shots were awesome. he was using 3 monostrobes.

so...today i am doing some product shots. i have 3 studio strobes. i set them up like he did. set the camera on iso100, f22 and shutter speed was 1/250. i even set the brightness of the strobes with a sekonic flash meter.

i have the 7d and the canon 24-70mm2.8 L glass, so i am similar to his setup. i have 3 strobes and they are set correctly with a flash meter......

i take the photos on a tripod with a remote shutter control. the photos are exposed correctly...but they have noise and are "soft".
now i don't usually take soft photos and product shots need to be sharp.....like i always take. the photos literally suck. the photos are really not usable for my caliber of product shots. and how did i get full of noise at iso100?? i get better at iso1600 at f5.6

i lowered the fstop to f8 and f10...the photos came out awesome...of course i had to dim the monostrobes to make the exposure proper.

so big question.......why at f22 did these photos come out soft? the only thing i can come up with is that my canon L lens is crap at f22. at f8 and f10 the shots are as sharp as anything out there.

i took shots of 23 different products and they all sucked at f22.

so, did this instructor really shoot at f22? if he did, he blew the canon equivalent right out of the ball field.

or is f22 a no no on a canon $1600 lens?

i would sure appreciate some discussion on this. for the first time, i am really disappointed in my gear.

i have been taking sharp product shots for the last 7 years soft is not an option.

i have never shot at f22 before.

thanks in advance.
jim
i went to a live seminar a few weeks ago on produc... (show quote)
I understand the problem from diffraction, but I d... (show quote)

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Aug 17, 2012 08:38:11   #
nikonshooter Loc: Spartanburg, South Carolina
 
jimberton wrote:
Nikonian72 wrote:
To increase DoF, have you considered "focus stacking" several images captured at larger apertures?


thanks...yes, i have done focus stacking (problem is that i take hundreds of product shots and cannot take that kind of time on each photo-and shouldn't have to...........but this instructor did nothing but aim and shoot. i should be able to replicate the same. at least i hope i can.

maybe on this canon lens i have to stay away from f22.

awhile back, it was either captainC or mtshooter that said the nikon 24-70 is way sharper than the canon L equivalent. i will soon see, as i rented a d7000 and the 24-70 lens.

i believe the d7000 would nikons version of canons 7d or vice versa.

i am not a brand fan boy. i take photos 5 days a week at my day job and i am a part time portrait photographer in the area.....if i can make my photos 50% better using a different brand, i will have to change.

we'll see what happens.......and i really have been over-satisfied with the 7d up to this point. the guy at the place where i rented the set told me i should also rent the new version of the 24-70 canon L les...series 2, i believe he said.

there's a big enough difference in these photos that i have to get to the bottom of it.
quote=Nikonian72 To increase DoF, have you consid... (show quote)


Whoa whoa whoa, focus stacking does not take time.....no more than the time to move your focus ring and fire off 20 plus shots. Then you can use the best aperture offering your 24x70 has, I would guess around F/11 or F/8.

When done, just load the images into Helicon Focus (stacking software) this software does the rest. It is more time consuming if done in PS but if this is how your are making a living, I can't imagine your not already using this. There are other good FS software programs, Helicon is excellent.

I have attached a photo that was stacked - 35 pictures in all. Took 10 minutes to arrange the strobes, fire the images, import into Lightroom, export into Helicon, click the render button and view.

It's easier to add a link than to add a attachment with Firefox, try these two links for more focus stacking using Helicon software.

http://www.edoverstreet.com/2011photos/jaeo/slides/Eoverstreet_150.html

http://www.edoverstreet.com/2011photos/jaeo/slides/Eoverstreet_115.html

I might also add, I can count the times I have stopped down to F22 on one hand......I have the 24x70 lens, I would not use it for a product shot but I clearly would not shoot it at F/22. I have some good glass but all of it loses IQ when headed in the direction of F/22

3 weeds arranged - Dandelions focus stacked
3 weeds arranged - Dandelions focus stacked...

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Aug 17, 2012 08:56:53   #
wowbmw Loc: Grant, Colorado
 
Maybe he meant the highest possible aperture it the sense of how open it could be to capture the product. Sometimes this language gets confusing.

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Aug 17, 2012 09:01:26   #
Country's Mama Loc: Michigan
 
This has been a very interesting discussion. The links you shared Nikonian really cleared some things up for me and explains some of the questions I have been having.

Reply
 
 
Aug 17, 2012 09:01:31   #
nikonshooter Loc: Spartanburg, South Carolina
 
wowbmw wrote:
Maybe he meant the highest possible aperture it the sense of how open it could be to capture the product. Sometimes this language gets confusing.


Your are probably right, if he teaches this I am sure he knows this. It does get confusing!

Reply
Aug 17, 2012 09:02:01   #
mafadecay Loc: Wales UK
 
jimberton wrote:
i went to a live seminar a few weeks ago on product photography. product photography is what i do 5 days a week at my great day job. the photographer was using a nikon d7000 with a 24-70mm 2.8 nikon lens. he stated that if you fill over 75% of the frame with the product to be shot...then you want the highest number fstop that your lens will do...such as f22...if you want everything in full focus. ok...makes sense, i thought.

he took some great product shots and had them printed there and passed them out. the shots were awesome. he was using 3 monostrobes.

so...today i am doing some product shots. i have 3 studio strobes. i set them up like he did. set the camera on iso100, f22 and shutter speed was 1/250. i even set the brightness of the strobes with a sekonic flash meter.

i have the 7d and the canon 24-70mm2.8 L glass, so i am similar to his setup. i have 3 strobes and they are set correctly with a flash meter......

i take the photos on a tripod with a remote shutter control. the photos are exposed correctly...but they have noise and are "soft".
now i don't usually take soft photos and product shots need to be sharp.....like i always take. the photos literally suck. the photos are really not usable for my caliber of product shots. and how did i get full of noise at iso100?? i get better at iso1600 at f5.6

i lowered the fstop to f8 and f10...the photos came out awesome...of course i had to dim the monostrobes to make the exposure proper.

so big question.......why at f22 did these photos come out soft? the only thing i can come up with is that my canon L lens is crap at f22. at f8 and f10 the shots are as sharp as anything out there.

i took shots of 23 different products and they all sucked at f22.

so, did this instructor really shoot at f22? if he did, he blew the canon equivalent right out of the ball field.

or is f22 a no no on a canon $1600 lens?

i would sure appreciate some discussion on this. for the first time, i am really disappointed in my gear.

i have been taking sharp product shots for the last 7 years soft is not an option.

i have never shot at f22 before.

thanks in advance.
jim
i went to a live seminar a few weeks ago on produc... (show quote)


I also mainly cover product photography and am also a Canon shooter. I shoot mostly around the F/8 sweet spot on the same lens as you or I might use the 50mm F/1.4 prime or 100mm macro. If it is a group of products making up a kit I might have to open up to maybe F/11 to F/14 but never F/22 and never F/2.8 for sharp products. I can not get straight out of camera results and always use a tripod.

I shoot RAW but mainly for white balance reasons. I do not do much sharpening in Adobe RAW I tend to PS unsharp mask just a little tweak. They are nearly there straight out of camera but not quite. I always tweak my levels also.

Nikons are different and seem more capable of straight out of camera results. I would not necessarily say Nikons are better but they are different. I think it is what you do with your kit that counts and if F/10 works for you then so be it with mild PP.

Question: do you shoot full manual or AV? Manual will yeild same results for every shot where as AV will adjust shutter speed and vary results depending on what subject your meter can see.

Once I am set up on manual and balanced my lights etc I can fire away regardless of what product I put on the bench (mostly).

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Aug 17, 2012 09:06:34   #
nikonshooter Loc: Spartanburg, South Carolina
 
Zero_Equals_Infinity wrote:
As already discussed it is not a hardware issue, but a physics one. Hence, the rule you have to live with is do not stop down further than about F10. Do not be concerned with the "recipe" just be aware of the physical limitations of smaller apertures.

Tilt-shift lenses are an ace in the photographer's sleave, because proper use of them can give you the equivalent of stopping down a normal lens further.

The things that are worth keeping from your instructor's class are notes on lighting, as good product photography is mostly about composition and lighting. That is why your results were great when all you did was reduced the aperture back to f9 or f10.
As already discussed it is not a hardware issue, b... (show quote)


You can tilt the plane of focus - down - with a TS lens and get better results but the results will never be as good as with a prime when using the same f/stop and focus stacking.

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Aug 17, 2012 09:16:44   #
RicknJude Loc: Quebec, Canada
 
I'm only replying so I get to know the outcome. Thanks.

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