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Cold Weather and Electric Cars, Part 2
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Feb 11, 2019 11:03:36   #
chrisscholbe (a regular here)
 
Electric cars are no different from any other "emerging" technology.

At first, it's expensive.
As it becomes more popular, improvements are made and competition increases, prices start coming down.

There are many good points about EVs.
They're not for everyone, but what technology is?

Are electric cars the wave of the future?
Only time will tell.

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Feb 11, 2019 11:33:57   #
jaycoffman
 
JBruce wrote:
Dave,
Firstly, living in MN where we had -40 F. this past week, I agree with your assessment and post. But that being said, I would imagine that the Green folks will now propose that personal electric transportation should be mandated for only short local driving and that we should re-establish the concept of electric powered light rail (trolley) for in city use and electric long distance rail for everything else, as an electric-powered airplane is not likely in any foreseeable future, and electric buses will suffer the same problems as autos. Remember this, and wait to see I am right--(which I am), right.
Dave, br Firstly, living in MN where we had -40 F... (show quote)


You may well be right but I don't think that the Green people need to have an absolute plan. Virtually all plans are general guidelines using the best information available at that time and only those that don't modify their plans to account for new information will fail.

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Feb 11, 2019 11:39:36   #
pendennis (a regular here)
 
As soon as the subsidies for "green power" go away, people will find out just how expensive the energy sources really are.

Right now, wind is not end-to-end costed. The price for which the power sells, doesn't even cover the cost of the coke to make the steel. When those costs are finally folded in, there will never be enough volume to cover them.

Storage of the DC power is also dubious. It still has to be converted to AC for distribution, and if the DC power is stored, those storage areas would have to be huge, then outgoing, the power has to be converted to AC for transmission to the power grid. There've been conversations about storing power underground, but at what cost?

We've been building an AC power system for over 140 years, and it's not going to be replaced in the next 140 years.

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Feb 11, 2019 12:10:38   #
JBruce
 
The really HUGE elephant in the room and one that everyone fears to address, or even acknowledge, is the issue of over-population by our benighted species. At the rate that it is growing and along with the wants of all of those folks, let alone their needs, your grandchildren and great grands are going to be living in a horror of a world in just a short time. I wish them well as they look back at this generation and its many failures to anticipate where we are driving this world. Copy and paste http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ for numbers, shocking.

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Feb 11, 2019 12:48:51   #
jaycoffman
 
pendennis wrote:
As soon as the subsidies for "green power" go away, people will find out just how expensive the energy sources really are.

Right now, wind is not end-to-end costed. The price for which the power sells, doesn't even cover the cost of the coke to make the steel. When those costs are finally folded in, there will never be enough volume to cover them.

Storage of the DC power is also dubious. It still has to be converted to AC for distribution, and if the DC power is stored, those storage areas would have to be huge, then outgoing, the power has to be converted to AC for transmission to the power grid. There've been conversations about storing power underground, but at what cost?

That's pretty much what they said about horse and buggy technology vs cars. As new systems emerge they are not cost effective because the infrastructures both socially and distribution wise are inadequate to provide them to a large part of the population. However, with gradual increases in demand there tend to be increases in efficiency and coupled with greater volume the price goes down. This does not mean I think all the green energy solutions will survive as there may be unforeseen things that prevent some of them. But I do think we could replace or wildly reduce our dependence on fossil fuels which may be a solution (even if we have to keep some internal combustion vehicles for sub-zero weather).

Although keep in mind one reason for the car was the pollution from horse droppings smelling up the streets so we (well, maybe not "we" as "we" are mostly old) may find we've created another monster.

The real problem in my opinion is as described in the recent posting on population. Humans seem intent on finding reasons to breed ourselves out of existence.

We've been building an AC power system for over 140 years, and it's not going to be replaced in the next 140 years.
As soon as the subsidies for "green power&quo... (show quote)

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Feb 11, 2019 13:37:14   #
George II
 
davefales wrote:
Sadly, desire to save the world can put up some barriers to common sense...and due diligence. Part of the reason EVs have gotten as far as they have was the healthy government subsidies. That persuaded people not to conduct the cost/benefit analysis they should have.


What prompted me to go with my Tesla was gasoline going to $3.00 a gallon...not the tax incentive, after 3 years of ownership I have had no regrets and as soon as a ev pickup truck hits the market I’m down with that as well.....
Just sayin...”the G”

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Feb 11, 2019 13:39:00   #
George II
 
TriX wrote:
No. As much as I love internal combution engines, there is a finite end to the supply of natural gas and fossil fuels, and the move to electric vehicles is inevitable, maybe not immediately, but eventually.

We need to preserve our existing fossil fuel supplies for those applications such as airplanes that will be difficult to power electrically, and for long distance driving, until faster recharging and a National recharging network is viable. BUT, for local commuting, especially in highly emission-polluted urban areas, electric makes so much sense. So what if a 200 mile range is reduced to 100 miles in the winter? For a large majority of urban commuters and drivers, that’s more than enough.

I have spent an inordinate percentage of my life racing and working with IC engines - countless hours tuning Webers, working on a dyno and a flowbench, but when one of my current vehicles is due to be replaced, it will be electric since most days, I drive no more than 25 miles a day. I’ll Keep a regular gas vehicle or a hybrid for trips and bemoan the loss of the sound of a 9,000 RPM V8 at full chat, but it’s time to embrace a new paradigm - it’s the future, and no amount of nostalgia will stop it.
No. As much as I love internal combution engines, ... (show quote)



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Feb 11, 2019 13:50:18   #
fetzler
 
We should be looking to cooler weather in the coming decades as the Sun is going into a quiet period. The next 3 sun spot cycles ( ~11 years each) are expected to have decreasing maxima. In 1900 folks traded in their electric cars for the reasons given many times above. Forget about horses. Can you imagine the amount of manure in NYC! In 1900 it was terrible.

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Feb 11, 2019 13:52:45   #
fetzler
 
Just a piece of physics Volts x Amps = Watts = Joules /sec.

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Feb 11, 2019 14:13:13   #
fetzler
 
Electric power is generated with mostly with Coal, gas and Nuclear and a bit of hydroelectric. If you have anything made of plastic it is made from petroleum. Just think about the hospital without plastic.

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Feb 11, 2019 14:58:07   #
davefales
 
[quote= I have had no regrets and as soon as a ev pickup truck hits the market I’m down with that as well.....
[/quote]

G - I'm curious. What is the longest trip you have taken with your Tesla?

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Feb 11, 2019 15:35:08   #
burkphoto (a regular here)
 
jerryc41 wrote:
When my son was shopping for his last two cars, I compared MPG and cost of a Honda Fit and a Prius. Although the Prius gets great mileage, and owners love them, it would take him many years to break even, considering the higher price of the Prius. Government subsidies helped to even out costs, but now that they're gone, saving money means buying the cheaper vehicle. We decided that the Fit would be more practical and economical. Saving money is often expensive.


Consumer Reports calculated cost per mile of the Fit and the Prius to be within a penny per mile.

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Feb 11, 2019 15:45:45   #
Mr Quark
 
Worrying about batteries is great but even more important is being able to charge those batteries. You still need more than windmills and solar; especially in the winter. Coal is always available and could be close to electric generators. Too many people have failed to look into what many call "Dumb Energy" . Believing all this GREEN baloney because you heard the news report it or listening to climate model scientists is dangerous. "Consensus" is not true Science......

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Feb 11, 2019 16:03:39   #
davefales
 
JBruce wrote:
The really HUGE elephant in the room and one that everyone fears to address, or even acknowledge, is the issue of over-population by our benighted species.


The Soylent Green solution might be called for/s.

It seems we are facing the half full/half empty quandary. The half-full crowd is optimistic and believes mankind is capable of finding workable solutions to thrive (not just survive). Then there's the half-empty crowd (Al Gore, Leonardo, AOC...)

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Feb 11, 2019 16:48:14   #
Flying Three
 
A moderate solution until the already mentioned problems are ironed out and one that can still help save our planet is the hybrid technology: a combination for hydrocarbon use and electricity.

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