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Feb 11, 2019 12:18:52   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
pendennis wrote:
As with other religionists, you're using the Bible and an author (among other titles) to support your thesis; neither of which are scientific in origin.


The bible isn't specifically a science text however being that the author is God..it's true where it touches on any topic.

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The Christian religion was nothing unique. A number of monotheistic religions of similar tenets existed around the same time in the Middle East.


It's very unique.

However no matter what was before or what came after that has no bearing on whether its claims are true or not. I've studied them all...no real parallel.

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As I mentioned, there is no scientific support for any kind of "intelligent design", and religionists just can't let go of the thought that everything arises from the ground, up.


Hahaha...LOTS of support but that's not why I believe; I believe because God is the precondition for all knowledge, morality...indeed all human experience. The fact that there are amazingly complex machines in the human cells (just the opposite that Darwin assumed) confirms it.

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God and gods were created by people who did/do not have scientific explanations for natural phenomena.


Bunk.

Another sloppy reasoning correction; even if folks made things up to help them explain things that doesn't have anything to do with whether the claims of Christianity are true or false.

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Science has proven that the earth is nearly 5 billion years old, and that the known universe is over 13.7 billion years old.


"Science" hasn't done anything...it cannot. It's a discipline used by humans to find things out about the physical world. HUMANS come to CONCLUSIONS based on evidence that they detect with their senses. Christians and non-Christians come to the opposite conclusions based on their starting assumptions.

Same evidence...opposite conclusions.

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The same people who believed that the solar system was terran-centric, denied a solar-centric system, even after it was mathematically proven.


Actually the church's mistake was listening to and following the secular scientists on that one.

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Scientists were pariahs and even condemned as heretics by religionists who could/would not accept the truth of science. Technologist were treated the same way. Many were considered charlatans and fakes, even after their ideas were proven in actual use.


Again...horribly sloppy thinking. Even IF folks in A church misused the bible and even IF they did wrong things (as all men do) that has NOTHING to do with the claims of the bible or God's existence.

Please reason more soundly.

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People brainwashed by Roman Catholic and Church of England doctrine, even in the 19th century, denied the existence of bacteria and its effects.


No idea but I don't call the church of England or the RC church Christian either.

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As to being an Evolutionist, I plead yes, and heartily so.

For those believing in an intelligent design by some omnipotent being, prove it scientifically. I take nothing on faith.



hahaha...nothing on faith?

You take EVERYTHING on faith.

Were you there?

No.

Was anyone there in the beginning?

No.

You believe a fairy tale for grownups that has NOTHING to do with science...lol. It's anti-science in fact.


https://answersingenesis.org/theory-of-evolution/evolution-the-anti-science/

Reply
Feb 11, 2019 18:18:52   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
tomcat wrote:
The problem is that most of man-kind, and not necessarily non-Christians because there are believers that are not Christians, is searching for a scientific and tangible proof of the origins of life and our earth. They cannot accept the most obvious solution that we had a divine creator because it requires faith in a concept that they cannot measure. Think of the number of people that would be out of jobs and have nothing to do if they didn't cling to their wild theories. These relentless "treasure hunters" will never be able to explain the origin of the universe and life on earth with science. And that's the key---it was not a measurable event that can be replicated. When I was a kid and played with firecrackers, I set off several big bangs and the things that I blew up never formed a definable shape even remotely like the earth. I am a retired biochemist that spent a life-time doing research in the blood and plasma field and the things that I have seen under the microscope convinced me that we are indeed divinely created. The strange things that our bodies do and the complicated processes that we have are not things that could have evolved with time. Most of these nut-case geologists are not even aware of the complexity of life forms and what it takes to sustain it. What they should be doing is to find out where the flood waters went and how that impacted the depths of the oceans. Only problem is that requires a submarine.....
The problem is that most of man-kind, and not nece... (show quote)


What if they don’t find the answer?

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Feb 11, 2019 18:19:52   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
rpavich wrote:
hahaha...nothing on faith?

You take EVERYTHING on faith.

Were you there?

No.

Was anyone there in the beginning?

No.
Please share your proof!
You believe a fairy tale for grownups that has NOTHING to do with science...lol. It's anti-science in fact.


https://answersingenesis.org/theory-of-evolution/evolution-the-anti-science/

Reply
 
 
Feb 11, 2019 19:03:56   #
tomcat
 
davyboy wrote:
What if they don’t find the answer?


It's not a concern of mine if they don't find the answer because I'll ask Him when I get there. I have more important things to worry about-- where I'm going than where I came from...... :))

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Feb 11, 2019 21:43:06   #
pendennis
 
rpavich wrote:
hahaha...nothing on faith?

You take EVERYTHING on faith.

Were you there?

No.

Was anyone there in the beginning?

No.

You believe a fairy tale for grownups that has NOTHING to do with science...lol. It's anti-science in fact.


https://answersingenesis.org/theory-of-evolution/evolution-the-anti-science/


We have a great astronomical record for determining the age of the universe. Likewise there are certain physical laws which don't change.

I can see what the Hubble Space Telescope sees, and it sees almost to the Big Bang. Newer telescopes like Chandra and Weber provide history as nothing has before. Stars have certain lifespans, and behave in certain manners. Through nuclear fusion, elements are created at predictable rates. Elements found on earth are found in particular patterns, predicted by the behavior of exploding stars. The numbers in astronomy and physics have been proven over and over, and not from the same people.

The fossil records of ancient creatures is not an extrapolation. The KT boundary is not mythology. The near-total extinctions hundreds of millions of years ago are not made up of whole cloth.

The biblical flood couldn't have happened several thousand years ago. Water at that depth would have wiped out everything, yet there's no evidence of a "Great Flood" anywhere else in the world.

The Bible doesn't explain just how Cain got a wife, if Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. Yet, if the story is metaphorical, you have millions of folks who take Genesis at face value.

Religionists can't see the science because they can't get the concept that evolution is a long-term, almost invisible process. You can't see rocks go to dust, you can't see a one-celled creature evolve. Humans have a minuscule concept of time, therefore unable in most cases to grasp just how long it takes for evolutionary changes to occur. Evolution is barely generational for the tiniest changes. Man walking upright probably took multi-thousands of years.

Humans measure time and events from their own birth. "You are what you were when...", to quote Morris Massey.

Reply
Feb 12, 2019 01:25:50   #
tomcat
 
pendennis wrote:
We have a great astronomical record for determining the age of the universe. Likewise there are certain physical laws which don't change.

I can see what the Hubble Space Telescope sees, and it sees almost to the Big Bang. Newer telescopes like Chandra and Weber provide history as nothing has before. Stars have certain lifespans, and behave in certain manners. Through nuclear fusion, elements are created at predictable rates. Elements found on earth are found in particular patterns, predicted by the behavior of exploding stars. The numbers in astronomy and physics have been proven over and over, and not from the same people.

The fossil records of ancient creatures is not an extrapolation. The KT boundary is not mythology. The near-total extinctions hundreds of millions of years ago are not made up of whole cloth.

The biblical flood couldn't have happened several thousand years ago. Water at that depth would have wiped out everything, yet there's no evidence of a "Great Flood" anywhere else in the world.

The Bible doesn't explain just how Cain got a wife, if Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. Yet, if the story is metaphorical, you have millions of folks who take Genesis at face value.

Religionists can't see the science because they can't get the concept that evolution is a long-term, almost invisible process. You can't see rocks go to dust, you can't see a one-celled creature evolve. Humans have a minuscule concept of time, therefore unable in most cases to grasp just how long it takes for evolutionary changes to occur. Evolution is barely generational for the tiniest changes. Man walking upright probably took multi-thousands of years.

Humans measure time and events from their own birth. "You are what you were when...", to quote Morris Massey.
We have a great astronomical record for determinin... (show quote)


Very interesting concepts that you have. But tell me, where do you think the stars, solid matter, and the gases originated?

Reply
Feb 12, 2019 04:47:37   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
pendennis wrote:
We have a great astronomical record for determining the age of the universe.


Yes...and like I said...evidence is interpreted based on a person's starting presuppositions; which is why we come to such distinctly different conclusions using the same exact evidence.
The real question is; who's starting assumptions are worth holding?


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Likewise there are certain physical laws which don't change.


Awesome! Which make perfect sense within the Christian worldview but if the Evolutionary worldview is true, there'd be no reason for them to exist nor be consistent. No logical reason at all. They are ONLY able to be justified within the Christian worldview. If you'd like to take a shot at explaining why they exist in the first place be my guest.

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I can see what the Hubble Space Telescope sees, and it sees almost to the Big Bang.


No you can't. You can conjecture about what happened in the past based on observations in the present; see comment #1 again about presuppositions.

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Newer telescopes like Chandra and Weber provide history as nothing has before.


No they don't. See answer above.

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Stars have certain lifespans, and behave in certain manners. Through nuclear fusion, elements are created at predictable rates. Elements found on earth are found in particular patterns, predicted by the behavior of exploding stars. The numbers in astronomy and physics have been proven over and over, and not from the same people.


Yes! and that amazing uniformity is to be expected in a universe that God created! But unfortunately in a universe that is the product of random chance processes it's not.

FYI: MANY of the pioneers of science were bible believing Christians.

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The fossil records of ancient creatures is not an extrapolation.


It most certainly is. Sure, fossils exist...they exist for Christians and Evolutionists alike but the conclusions drawn are all about starting assumptions of each group.

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The KT boundary is not mythology.


Certainly it's not..it's a result of the worldwide flood.

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The near-total extinctions hundreds of millions of years ago are not made up of whole cloth.


Whole cloth...perfect description of what you just said.

Quote:
The biblical flood couldn't have happened several thousand years ago. Water at that depth would have wiped out everything, yet there's no evidence of a "Great Flood" anywhere else in the world.



See my repeated answers about evidence and assumptions.

Quote:
The Bible doesn't explain just how Cain got a wife, if Adam and Eve were the first people on earth.


Lol...trotting out that old chestnut are we?

Cain married his sister or another close female relative. Done. Quit trying that one on Christians.

Quote:
Yet, if the story is metaphorical, you have millions of folks who take Genesis at face value.


It's not and I certainly hope they do...God cannot lie or be mistaken (unlike men who do both with regularity.)

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Religionists can't see the science because they can't get the concept that evolution is a long-term, almost invisible process.


Wrong.

Christians specifically have no problem with science...many of the giants of science were bible believing Christians. What we do have a problem with is the Pseudo of Molecules-to-man evolutionary fairy tale.

Quote:
You can't see rocks go to dust, you can't see a one-celled creature evolve.


Lol...more fairy tales.

If you want to know what is anti-science then look no further than Molecules-to-man evolution. It's anything BUT science.

Do creatures adapt?

Yes!

Speciation?

Yes!

No problem. That's observable science.

It's when you try and conflate that with fake evolutionary fairy tales that it ceases to be science.

Quote:
Humans have a minuscule concept of time, therefore unable in most cases to grasp just how long it takes for evolutionary changes to occur.


No...we don't.

We just disagree that it's true.

Quote:
Evolution is barely generational for the tiniest changes. Man walking upright probably took multi-thousands of years.


Men walked upright from the time they were created by God...they were men...they are men....that's it.

Quote:
Humans measure time and events from their own birth. "You are what you were when...", to quote Morris Massey.


Sorry...I'll take the word of the one who was there at the beginning over fairy tales that change with each generation but are stated as fact each time before they change.

I'll end with this.

Science isn't even possible without presupposing God. There is no reason to think that in a universe that's the product of an accident, and beings who are the product of chemical reactions and random chance mutations would be able to trust their reasoning. Christians know that we can trust our reasoning in a basic way because God created us as reasoning beings in a world where there are universal, invariant, transcendent laws of reasoning and nature.

I've yet to see any evolutionist give a rational justification for the existence of the laws of logic, or any of the physical laws (beyond saying that "Hey! they exist and we use them!) which is a non answer...devoid of intellectual horsepower.

Reply
 
 
Feb 12, 2019 08:25:24   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
pendennis wrote:
We have a great astronomical record for determining the age of the universe. Likewise there are certain physical laws which don't change.

I can see what the Hubble Space Telescope sees, and it sees almost to the Big Bang. Newer telescopes like Chandra and Weber provide history as nothing has before. Stars have certain lifespans, and behave in certain manners. Through nuclear fusion, elements are created at predictable rates. Elements found on earth are found in particular patterns, predicted by the behavior of exploding stars. The numbers in astronomy and physics have been proven over and over, and not from the same people.

The fossil records of ancient creatures is not an extrapolation. The KT boundary is not mythology. The near-total extinctions hundreds of millions of years ago are not made up of whole cloth.

The biblical flood couldn't have happened several thousand years ago. Water at that depth would have wiped out everything, yet there's no evidence of a "Great Flood" anywhere else in the world.

The Bible doesn't explain just how Cain got a wife, if Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. Yet, if the story is metaphorical, you have millions of folks who take Genesis at face value.

Religionists can't see the science because they can't get the concept that evolution is a long-term, almost invisible process. You can't see rocks go to dust, you can't see a one-celled creature evolve. Humans have a minuscule concept of time, therefore unable in most cases to grasp just how long it takes for evolutionary changes to occur. Evolution is barely generational for the tiniest changes. Man walking upright probably took multi-thousands of years.

Humans measure time and events from their own birth. "You are what you were when...", to quote Morris Massey.
We have a great astronomical record for determinin... (show quote)

Those are still theory’s ! Got proof

Reply
Feb 12, 2019 08:26:52   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
W
pendennis wrote:
You're conflating non-believers (i.e. atheists) with those who worship something, or someone who's not "God".

I do not believe in God, or a god of any kind; I do not worship anything.

Evolution is the belief that everything arose from the "ground" (sea, swamp, water, etc.) up. Think in terms of cranes, not sky hooks. Buildings, bridges, etc., all start from the bottom, as did life on earth.

You worship your self think about it

Reply
Feb 12, 2019 08:28:35   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
pendennis wrote:
As with other religionists, you're using the Bible and an author (among other titles) to support your thesis; neither of which are scientific in origin. The Christian religion was nothing unique. A number of monotheistic religions of similar tenets existed around the same time in the Middle East.

As I mentioned, there is no scientific support for any kind of "intelligent design", and religionists just can't let go of the thought that everything arises from the ground, up.

God and gods were created by people who did/do not have scientific explanations for natural phenomena. Science has proven that the earth is nearly 5 billion years old, and that the known universe is over 13.7 billion years old.

The same people who believed that the solar system was terran-centric, denied a solar-centric system, even after it was mathematically proven. Scientists were pariahs and even condemned as heretics by religionists who could/would not accept the truth of science. Technologist were treated the same way. Many were considered charlatans and fakes, even after their ideas were proven in actual use.

People brainwashed by Roman Catholic and Church of England doctrine, even in the 19th century, denied the existence of bacteria and its effects.

As to being an Evolutionist, I plead yes, and heartily so.

For those believing in an intelligent design by some omnipotent being, prove it scientifically. I take nothing on faith.
As with other religionists, you're using the Bible... (show quote)

Got proof
?

Reply
Feb 12, 2019 09:46:27   #
pendennis
 
davyboy wrote:
Got proof
?


Don't need to. You posited that the Bible is "the answer". The ball's in your court.

Reply
 
 
Feb 12, 2019 10:01:20   #
pendennis
 
rpavich wrote:
Sorry...I'll take the word of the one who was there at the beginning over fairy tales that change with each generation but are stated as fact each time before they change.

I'll end with this.

Science isn't even possible without presupposing God. There is no reason to think that in a universe that's the product of an accident, and beings who are the product of chemical reactions and random chance mutations would be able to trust their reasoning. Christians know that we can trust our reasoning in a basic way because God created us as reasoning beings in a world where there are universal, invariant, transcendent laws of reasoning and nature.

I've yet to see any evolutionist give a rational justification for the existence of the laws of logic, or any of the physical laws (beyond saying that "Hey! they exist and we use them!) which is a non answer...devoid of intellectual horsepower.
Sorry...I'll take the word of the one who was ther... (show quote)


Your logic is completely circular.

I never stated that evolution is "accidental", neither is it planned. It occurs as a response to external stimuli. Whether it's climate, environmental, chemical, or other causes, it's not random. Learning is an evolutionary process, though speedy by earth's evolutionary history.

In fact, man is a star-produced being. Every element is astro-produced, the result of stars exploding; so are various chemical compounds. Even the enzymes, proteins, and amino acids existed before earth was formed, and deposited by meteorite/comet collisions.

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Feb 12, 2019 10:11:25   #
pendennis
 
rpavich wrote:

Certainly it's not..it's a result of the worldwide flood.


The KT boundary layer was formed ca. 65 million years ago by a meteor or comet. Evidence is found globally.

It contains the element Iridium. Iridium isn't found at any appreciable level, anywhere else on earth. Iridium is only found in "abundance" in the KT boundary layer, caused by a comet/meteorite collision.

Iridium is only found in any quantities in meteors, comets, and asteroids.

Reply
Feb 12, 2019 10:49:00   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
pendennis wrote:
Your logic is completely circular.

I never stated that evolution is "accidental", neither is it planned.


You didn't but it is accidental, by definition it must be random without direction or intelligence.

Quote:
It occurs as a response to external stimuli. Whether it's climate, environmental, chemical, or other causes, it's not random. Learning is an evolutionary process, though speedy by earth's evolutionary history.


If you are referring to speciation and adaption yes..I agree but that's not what you are doing. You are conflating "molecules to man" evolution with adaption within species....two very different things. One is observable and one is conjecture.

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In fact, man is a star-produced being.


Man is a special creation of God.

You keep stating things as if you could know and of course, you can't possibly know.

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Every element is astro-produced, the result of stars exploding; so are various chemical compounds. Even the enzymes, proteins, and amino acids existed before earth was formed, and deposited by meteorite/comet collisions.


Sure...that's the baseless idea anyway.

Like I said..I'll go with the God who was there and cannot lie on what is what and why there is anything here at all rather than men's ever-changing ideas.

Reply
Feb 12, 2019 10:52:43   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
pendennis wrote:
The KT boundary layer was formed ca. 65 million years ago by a meteor or comet. Evidence is found globally.


No it wasn't.

Quote:
It contains the element Iridium. Iridium isn't found at any appreciable level, anywhere else on earth. Iridium is only found in "abundance" in the KT boundary layer, caused by a comet/meteorite collision.

Iridium is only found in any quantities in meteors, comets, and asteroids.



LOTS of issues with that conjecture.

Here is a good link about the many problems with it.

https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/extinction/dinosaur-killer/


A far more likely theory is that the iridium enrichment came from volcanic activity, not outer space. Volcanoes do produce iridium and spread it out.

The Bible says that “all fountains of the great deep were broken up” (Genesis 7:11). The breakup of the earth’s crust would certainly have caused volcanoes on an unprecedented scale during the Flood, explaining the iridium in the K-T boundary. The bulk of the world’s fossils would have formed as a result of this catastrophe.

While pairs of every kind of dinosaur survived the Flood on board the Ark, it appears that their population never grew large in the new world. Like so many other kinds of animals, their small populations finally went extinct for a variety of reasons typical of many animals, including climate changes, diseases, decrease in food supply, and humans.

Starting with the Bible, it is easy to make sense of the mass kill of dinosaurs found in the fossil record.

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