burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Not really. Initial lens selection isn't great. In 2-3 years, when the three lens makers release more useful glass, we may see some traction with still photographers. Pricing is pretty steep, and pretty proud, and I'm doubtful there will be many takers at those levels. Saying you can mount Leica L glass on it is great, until you look at the prices! Hopefully, some of the Sigma lenses will be available at launch.

My main excitement is that the S1 does video in full frame. But as Tony Northrup points out here:

https://youtu.be/dGFSxbLxnFQ

...There are some limitations and frustrations to overcome.

Bear in mind that Panasonic cameras do tend to take 18 months to reach "firmware maturity," and additional feature updates and upgrades continue to trickle into the market until they quit making the body.

I'm anxious to hear what Griffin Hammond says about the S1 after using it for a year or two. He has several GH5s and uses them for documentaries all the time.

Most folks who use the GH5 know it is rock solid and does things with video and audio that nothing else in the same $1600 price range can do. But like all cameras, it has a few weak points for some people, AF performance being one of them. Real filmmakers really don't use AF very often, but vloggers do, and unfortunately, their camera reviews sway a lot of folks. Vloggers won't like these, either, because the rear screen does not fully articulate. It just tilts! BOO, HISS. That was a boneheaded move.

One of the GH5's greatest strengths, the IBIS and Dual IS 2, is actually a serious problem in some filmmaking situations. It's great until your "run and gun" efforts get into serious jogging mode, or you're driving around in a Jeep over rugged, off-road terrain, and notice that the 5-axis IBIS is failing because the sensor is flailing. It can't handle heavy G forces, any more than any other IBIS can. That's why the GH5s deliberately left out IBIS.

So, I think the jury is still out. Time will tell. There is a lot of promise here, and they did get many things right at the start.

speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho

Yep, they announced them about half a year ago and they are finally here. Like I said before, Panasonic is going to be the major "dude" in the mirrorless camera market! They will hold the top spot in that market in the very near future!

gwilliams6

Well it is NOT all wonderful when it comes to the new Panasonic S1 and S1R when you look closely under the covers. The reality is NOT the same as the hyped claims.

Tony and Chelsea Northrup, The TRUTH about the Panasonic S1 & S1R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFSxbLxnFQ

David Oastler -- Panasonic S1 S1R release discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxAqUC4zIB8&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3eFFEEnXkgPFP4FNIUCtJARRSM9iepZaRDJgWMj997a7DmWaJpRsL3v0A

gwilliams6

Only contrast detection focus is going to be a deal-breaker for most pros and serious amateurs, sorry.

le boecere

I quit watching Tony's review 'cause he keeps talking "video". Apparently, these cameras are for "videographers". That leaves me out, and sends me back to Fujifilm and Sony.

foathog Loc: Greensboro, NC

Now if they could only change the name of the camera

gwilliams6

Camera Conspiracies also isn't happy about the new Panasonic. His style is funny but he always has his facts right and is well respected.

Why Panasonic S1 is the Worst Full Frame Mirrorless Camera for Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndb7wHa_MYY&t=40s

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

That's funny, because both Sony and Fujifilm cameras are also video capable. Sony has several bodies that make superb video cameras. Fujifilm doesn't quite have the full toolset yet, but they are very close to having what videographers and filmmakers need. Their footage is awesome.

Tony Northrup and many other video bloggers (vloggers) on the Internet rely on digital video in dSLRs and mirrorless cameras to record their YouTube channels. That's why they get all amped up over video. Panasonic and Sony are the two leading producers of mirrorless cameras that record great video. So all their new bodies will be scrutinized ruthlessly. Along with them, Canon and Nikon and Fujifilm get similar scrutiny, because some people use them for video, too.

In a perfect world, we would take the best features from several camera brands and put them all in one camera. Unfortunately for us, due to patent laws, no one can do that. Every dSLR and mirrorless camera has some strengths and some weaknesses.

Some still photographers love to whine, complaining that they are paying for unnecessary features when they buy a still camera with video in it. They need to understand that their digital cameras would not exist without first being video cameras!

The digital imaging sensor evolved first in the video camera world. That's why the nomenclature for sensor size still persists... It was an arcane method of measuring the business end of an analog video camera tube. A 1" sensor has only about 16mm of diagonal dimension! The measurement persists because the analog video camera tube used decades ago had a 1" diameter. The guts of the tube required that diameter... (I can't think of a more misleading way to name digital sensor sizes, but it persists! Industry insiders understand it, and it's conveniently misleading to customers.)

In the first digital *video* cameras, there were no shutters! The engineers knew all along that shutters were pointless until they were able to get the sensel density up to a point that would create a usable still photo. That point was the mid-1990s. Suddenly, shutters became important, so digital video circuitry was adapted to still cameras. The dSLR was born at Kodak, when they kludged a sensor into a Nikon and hung a box of processing electronics on the bottom of it. It had about 1.2 MP resolution, and it cost about $30,000 in those days — over $50,000 in 2019 money.

The autofocus technologies available have very different applications. Contrast Detect AF with Depth from Defocus is what Panasonic uses in their mirrorless bodies. It works GREAT with still subjects. In fact, nothing is better for stationary objects. BUT, it does not work reliably with active, moving subjects. The schemes used by other manufacturers are more appropriate for sports and wildlife. Canon's scheme used in the 80D and later bodies is among the best. Sony's scheme, especially in the A9, is also among the best.

Panasonic has a very important target audience for its video-capable cameras: Low budget filmmakers, documentary filmmakers, local TV commercial producers, trainers, students, portrait photographers, product photographers, wedding video producers... The target audience isn't sports photographers. It's not wildlife photographers. It is only by accident the video bloggers.

Most of us who buy Lumix GH series cameras DO NOT use autofocus for video. We structure and compose our still and video scenes carefully, even storyboarding them in many cases. We focus manually, using focus peaking, or by using "manual with auto assist." On my camera, I use "touch screen pull focus". I can look through the EVF with my finger on the touch screen, and drag the focus from one place in the frame to another. It's great for switching focus during dialog.

Panasonic does so many things well with their cameras that those of us who need those camera competencies are willing to be frustrated by the few things that don't work quite so well.

I really like Hugh Brownstone's analysis, although he rambles way more than I do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8g_lZGx7e8&feature=youtu.be

gwilliams6

Burkphoto, I have posted some of these less-than glowing videos, but I want to be clear. I am not saying that these new Panasonic S1 S1R cameras are bad, but they do have some shortcomings that go against the glowing hype of the introduction. I fully understand the desire and need for Panasonic to get into the FF mirrorless market NOW or be left behind.

I was just hoping these cameras will solve the few issues from the excellent GH series. Apparently there are 1.5X video crops ,only CDAF and crippled still frame rates for AF-C. At these prices, those shortcomings alone could be deal-breakers for many looking at high-end FF mirrorless systems that can pretty much do it all.

Maybe feedback before the actually cameras coming out will give Panasonic some time to fix firmware, but probably not enough time to fix hardware.

I wish Panasonic well, but in a shrinking camera market, with a more crowded FF mirrorless field, any major shortcomings can spell poor sales for a particular model, whether it is the Canon EOS R or these new Panasonics. Cheers

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

'Camera Conspiracies' dude is just patently annoying here. That video has one like and 34 dislikes as I'm typing this... Like many reviewers, he seems to assume that his view of camera perfection is the only one that counts.

Well, 'Camera Conspiracies' dude, get over it. Make your bed and move out of your mom's basement.

I get it about the lack of a fully articulating screen. That annoys me. But it is not a deal breaker, since I'm not a video blogger. Panasonic will have a version of the Panasonic Image App for smartphones and tablets. It will let you BLOW UP the image onto a smartphone or tablet and view from any reasonable angle or distance, and still trip the shutter or start and stop a video. I'm sure there will be a third party smartphone holder to mount on videographers' camera rigs... I have one for my GH4 here, somewhere.

CDAF will get better, but will never be Phase Detect AF. Those who need Phase Detect should get something else. I understand that rock steady AF is the holy grail of video bloggers. They use that cliche technique of holding the camera at arms length, insisting to walk around with the camera perfectly focused on their faces, while a distracting background floats by. They're so in love with their own faces they believe that THEY, and not their topics of conversation, are the stars of their shows. (If you're going to hold the camera at arm's length, why not just turn OFF AF, manually focus once, and be done with it?)

I know I wouldn't want to hold any camera for vlogging if it weighs a kilogram (before you add the lens!). That's just insane. Anyway, why use a $2500 to $3700 camera for vlogging when a much lighter and less expensive camera, or even a smartphone will do? The S1 and S1R are total overkill for a YouTube video blog. But then, so is most everything else...

One thing that bothers me about all of these reviews is that they can't possibly be more than first impressions. The camera won't be released for two months, and contains early, incomplete firmware. It will be 6 to 18 months before we have a reasonably optimized system. That was true for the GH3, GH4, GH5, GH5s, and G9.

gwilliams6

Burkphoto when the video launch ceremonies tout all those miraculous features , Panansonic opens itself up to criticism when the first people with these cameras find out some of the hype is not actually true. Nikon and Canon did the same thing with their hype for the Z-cameras and EOS R and they were found out. In their cases nothing changed once production models came out. At this late date, even pre-production Panasonic models in the hand of reviewers are pretty much finished products, so the reviews are valid IMHO.

Panasonic has NO excuse from coming out with expensive cameras that can't focus on moving subjects in stills and video. CDAF alone just doesn't cut it in the FF mirrorless camera market. All the wonderful resolution and image stabilization in the world doesn't matter if your shots are not focused. What were they thinking, really. And these Panasonics can't match the video performance of their smaller micro 4/3rds brothers. Why pay more to step up to FF if micro 4/3rds is better at 4k/60p. Plus the better 4k/60p in the APS-C Fuji XT-3, all at less cost than these FF Panasonics.

I don't expect Panasonic micro 4/3rds folks to move to these. I don't see others choosing these over the best from Sony, Fuji, Nikon and Canon, so Burkphoto where is the market for these expensive cameras ?

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

The test bodies are not *really* finished cameras. They are hardware revision 1, firmware revision 0.7. Even after release, at firmware rev. 1.0, the firmware won't be fully finished (it wasn't on the GH5, GH5s, and G9, and probably still isn't). Three years after the GH4 was released, we still got firmware updates.

Time will tell us how this camera is received. I know I don't need to own an S1/S1R. For some jobs, I might rent one. I wouldn't use it for sports or wildlife. That would be either the Sony A9 or a top end dSLR from Canikon. But I would use the S1R in the studio for portraits or products that have to be blown up really huge, yet still retain detail. VERY FEW subjects require that approach, however. Large group photos would be another application for the S1R, so everyone can be rendered recognizable.

I might use an S1 for video, but only with the V-Log option installed (see below). More likely, I'd use a GH5s in low light.

CDAF isn't bad technology. It's just more appropriate for certain applications, which happen to be fewer in number and less glamorous than action situations.

A big issue most full frame video-capable cameras have is HEAT. Large, high density sensors just plain get hot. It takes roughly four times the power to run a full frame sensor, and the more MP on it, the more heat gets generated. That's why the S1R is limited to 15 minutes of top-end video. The S1 is limited to 30 minutes at 50P or 60P without V-Log, but shoots until the card is full at 30P or slower.

On the out-of-the-box S1, having to use a Super 35/APS-C like crop for 50/60 fps is going to bother some folks, but filmmakers will still be able to use the full sensor width at 24P up to 30P.

VERY annoying is having to record 4:2:0 video unless you buy the V-Log upgrade. But that V-Log upgrade allows using the FULL sensor width at 4K and 1080P, plus you get the FULL Panasonic V-Log, rather than V-Log L on the GH4 and GH5. And you get 10-bit 4:2:2 for proper color grading. So serious filmmakers likely won't buy or use this camera without V-Log.

About the only reasons I can think of to use the S1 with V-Log upgrade for video are centered around the use of full V-Log and the 10-bit 4:2:2 capture, AND the look of full frame (i.e.; shallow DOF). That said, where are the super fast lenses? It will be a while until they're available.

One thing to watch is what Sigma does. They have a Foveon sensor-based full frame L mount body in the works. And they have planned to release around 14 L lenses at some point.

gwilliams6

I understand about the pre-production firmware argument. Nikon said the same thing when first reviews of the Z-camera turned up shortcomings after all the super hype. . Nikon said wait for final production models. And yet when final production models were released there was virtually no difference in the firmware and none in the hardware. It gets stale when you have a big fancy intro touting and hyping "revolutionary" features, but the cameras you give reviewers don't perform as hyped. Nikon got caught doing the same things and it took until the recent promised updates to give those cameras a better profile. Now the Z-cameras are on sale already, faster than any new top release in memory. Hmmm.

My hope is that Panasonic will NOT ignore the issues with this camera and fix them quickly, if possible. If these issues remain when they are finally released, Panasonic may find that folks won't be willing to pay these high prices vs the competition. I want Panasonic to succeed here, as great competition will keep all the brands innovating and pushing the envelope, and we all win.

But in this shrinking worldwide camera market, no camera brand can afford many missteps, if any anymore. There are just too many choices now in FF mirrorless, and choices with more extensive lens and accessory systems than Panasonic fullframe.

I hope Sony is paying attention here and doesn't make some of these same missteps with their next high-end FF mirrorless release the A7SIII. I personally just upgraded my A7III to an A9 (I still have my A7RIII) following the amazing new FREE firmware updates coming in March and June that will take this already amazing A9 to a new level of performance, with some of those updated features going to the A7RIII and A7III too. . Panasonic can do the same, and I hope they will be able. . There is a rumor that these S1 and S1R may eventually be able to do 8k to an external recorder with a future update, that would be cool. Cheers

gwilliams6

Long Time Panasonic User Switched to Sony. Will I go Back To Panasonic S1 Full Frame (professional shooter Aron J. Anderson)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FgOAH69bN8&fbclid=IwAR2HEIDGRnRYSuCNSXYmqEQWvInLe-pHi1atWibfIlDiz5i-zTB0Gm30jEg