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Professiional wedding photography dies in the UK
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Jan 26, 2019 05:01:51   #
Pistnbroke Loc: UK
 
Wedding photographer since the Hassleblad days and about 4 years ago no problem to get 40 weddings and turn away 80. Now the phone has not rung for months despite 30 a weeks to the website ( was 120).
I put it down to mobile phones /lack of money and weekend warriors but no I was wrong.
The reason in the UK is the use of preferred suppliers by hotels...disco /catering/chaircovers/ photographers etc. It not a problem if they say we recommend X Y and Z but then they say if you don't use X y or Z there is a £200 ( $250) surcharge to use your own choice of photographer.....
X<Y and Z are back handing the wedding planner at the hotel (£200) so at one local venue with 10 weddings a week that a lot of $$$$$$. As most wedding planners are female the female photographers seem to get preference. There is also a scam going on with payments to be in the Hotel wedding brocure.
One local photographer who was a bit arrogant fell out of favour with hotels and that was the end of him after 20 years.
Fortunately I am at an age to retire with only one wedding to do that will be the end.
How does this play out in the US ?

Reply
Jan 26, 2019 06:13:00   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
Wow. Sounds like the business model is shifting. Need to change the marketing tactic (ie offer to pay the hotel penalty as a discount OR increase the service (time) or deliverables etc to compete. If you understand the changing nature of the market, you can either adapt or die.

I shot 2 weddings in 1 week in Jamaica. (Brother and sister had their weddings same week). Hotel offered a pro photog as part of the deal. They do a decent job as they know the facility etc. However, they could not even come close to competing on total value. I was there for the week and did candids all week. "Photog on call". The most tear jerking photos were not the ones from the wedding. They paid 5x more for me than the local and still got the better value.

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Jan 27, 2019 09:41:10   #
DebAnn Loc: Toronto
 
Sounds like British photographers should start making a lot of noise in the press!
Pistnbroke wrote:
Wedding photographer since the Hassleblad days and about 4 years ago no problem to get 40 weddings and turn away 80. Now the phone has not rung for months despite 30 a weeks to the website ( was 120).
I put it down to mobile phones /lack of money and weekend warriors but no I was wrong.
The reason in the UK is the use of preferred suppliers by hotels...disco /catering/chaircovers/ photographers etc. It not a problem if they say we recommend X Y and Z but then they say if you don't use X y or Z there is a £200 ( $250) surcharge to use your own choice of photographer.....
X<Y and Z are back handing the wedding planner at the hotel (£200) so at one local venue with 10 weddings a week that a lot of $$$$$$. As most wedding planners are female the female photographers seem to get preference. There is also a scam going on with payments to be in the Hotel wedding brocure.
One local photographer who was a bit arrogant fell out of favour with hotels and that was the end of him after 20 years.
Fortunately I am at an age to retire with only one wedding to do that will be the end.
How does this play out in the US ?
Wedding photographer since the Hassleblad days and... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Jan 27, 2019 09:45:42   #
Pistnbroke Loc: UK
 
Good point . not even sure if its legal ..The MPA and BIPP don't seem to have shouted very loud but then they are in decline as the weekend warriors take over,

Do you get this in the US ?

Reply
Jan 27, 2019 10:51:03   #
ronz Loc: Florida
 
To my knowledge it has not occured here. I still have venues who refer clients to me but I have slowed down on weddings due to health and the longer 8+10 hour days. Seems like weddings have gotten much longer in the past few years (maybe just me) although my prices have risen to compensate and added a photographer to assist for some of the shoot or do video if requested. Must say, I now lean to the high end weddings and refer others. Thirty plus years is a long time but has been great most of the time, especially when the brides eyes light up when she sees the finished product. Much of my energy is now shooting as an on-call for magazines along with corporate headshots and product shoots. Fortunately my studio is in my home now and has all the flexibility that my outside studio had except the high rent. I don't see high end wedding photography slowing down in this country but I do believe brides are expecting more and are willing to pay for it, especially if referred. There are a lot of photographers out there who will shoot a small fee as they start up or learning. I was fortunate to with for a great photographer when starting to shoot weddings, (we only used Medium Format film) so I have tried to pass that on but in digital format.

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Jan 27, 2019 11:27:09   #
DebAnn Loc: Toronto
 
I'm in Canada and to my knowledge it isn't happening here. I think couples do get recommendations from venues sometimes but I haven't heard that they're pushy.
Pistnbroke wrote:
Good point . not even sure if its legal ..The MPA and BIPP don't seem to have shouted very loud but then they are in decline as the weekend warriors take over,

Do you get this in the US ?

Reply
Jan 27, 2019 12:42:51   #
Pistnbroke Loc: UK
 
A lot of the hotels make it compulsory to use " the whole package" or you cannot use the venue..disco caterers photographer , chairs ete… So there is the problem

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Jan 29, 2019 09:47:41   #
bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana
 
I've only run into it twice, and both times were "destination weddings" where not only are the couple held hostage to use the venue's photographer, they actually wouldn't allow guests to carry in as much as a smart phone to take photos. They literally have security to check that you aren't smuggling in cameras!

Other than that (Vegas, and Pigeon Forge TN, both super popular wedding destinations) I haven't heard of it in local areas.

That being said, I work at being on the list of recommended photographers, any chance I get. I think that networking with venues and planners pays dividends much more than spending money on pay per click advertising, or facebook.

Reply
Jan 29, 2019 13:37:04   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Pistnbroke wrote:
Wedding photographer since the Hassleblad days and about 4 years ago no problem to get 40 weddings and turn away 80. Now the phone has not rung for months despite 30 a weeks to the website ( was 120).
I put it down to mobile phones /lack of money and weekend warriors but no I was wrong.
The reason in the UK is the use of preferred suppliers by hotels...disco /catering/chaircovers/ photographers etc. It not a problem if they say we recommend X Y and Z but then they say if you don't use X y or Z there is a £200 ( $250) surcharge to use your own choice of photographer.....
X<Y and Z are back handing the wedding planner at the hotel (£200) so at one local venue with 10 weddings a week that a lot of $$$$$$. As most wedding planners are female the female photographers seem to get preference. There is also a scam going on with payments to be in the Hotel wedding brocure.
One local photographer who was a bit arrogant fell out of favour with hotels and that was the end of him after 20 years.
Fortunately I am at an age to retire with only one wedding to do that will be the end.
How does this play out in the US ?
Wedding photographer since the Hassleblad days and... (show quote)


Pistnbroke wrote:
Wedding photographer since the Hasselblad days and about 4 years ago no problem to get 40 weddings and turn away 80. Now the phone has not rung for months despite 30 a weeks to the website ( was 120).
I put it down to mobile phones /lack of money and weekend warriors but no I was wrong.
The reason in the UK is the use of preferred suppliers by hotels...disco /catering/chair covers/ photographers etc. It's not a problem if they say we recommend X Y and Z but then they say if you don't use X y or Z there is a £200 ( $250) surcharge to use your own choice of photographer.....
X<Y and Z are backhanding the wedding planner at the hotel (£200) so at one local venue with 10 weddings a week that a lot of $$$$$$. As most wedding planners are female the female photographers seem to get preference. There is also a scam going on with payments to be in the Hotel wedding brochure.
One local photographer who was a bit arrogant fell out of favor with hotels and that was the end of him after 20 years.
Fortunately, I am at an age to retire with only one wedding to do that will be the end.
How does this play out in the U.S.?
Wedding photographer since the Hasselblad days and... (show quote)


Morbid title! When's the funeral!

I would not venture to opine on the wedding photography industry in the U.K, but I always tend to disbelieve all the doom and gloom that many photographers predict. I work and live in Canada and prior to that in the United States. There have been many shifts and changes in the wedding business but it is still alive and well and the level of success is up to each individual photographer and their style. the product, quality, and marketing strategy. Each operator has to market and function on their own and can not depend on "wedding planners" and "package deals" from venue operators.

In most North American jurisdictions, this monkey business of restricting outside independent photographers from operating in certain venues is actually illegal in that is restraint of trade and may even qualify as contravening anti-monopoly and antitrust laws in countries that have those regulations.

Back in my days in New York, many of the big catering hall operators attempted to restrict admission to their " so-called "house photographers" and the had to cut it out because it was illegal and from pressure from their clients. Besides the laws, many of the brides and grooms, their clients, objected. Their argument was that if they are spending thousands of dollars on their reception catering and have the right to bring in any vendors of their choice. Of course, the venue operators were receiving kickbacks from the "house photographers". Some caterers would tell the clients that THEIR photographer knew the halls better and could manage shooting with all the mirrored walls (etc) and get along better with the maitre 'd...guys and some of these folks insinuated that outside shooters would not get cooperation- intimidation tactics. It was all a crock and many of the photographers joined together and put an end to all of those shenanigans.

Female wedding planners- photographers? Nothing wrong with that. My wife ran our office and did most of the sales for decades and my booking rate ain't too bad either. My daughter is a talented photographer and hopefully, she will take over the wedding department soon. I have rarely seen a bride choose her photographer based on gender. I have never met a male wedding planner- I'm sure there is one somewhere- geezers don't have that kind of patience or organizational skills! Gotta love the ladies!

I started off in the business in the days of the 4x5 press camera and went to medium format for may years -6x7 press cameras, Rolleiflex models, Hasselblads- whatever. I never discussed my equipment choices with my clients. Mostly they never asked and again, I can't recall any of anyone selecting their photographer based on gear. Hopefully, savvy buyers select their photographer based on their work and service and assume that their professional shooter will utilize the best equipment for the job.

Independent photographers and studio operators should not only depend on wedding planners and "deals" with other vendors. You need to market and sell directly to the clients and there are many avenues- the Internet, bridal shows, print advertising in bridal and wedding publications, networking with other like-minded vendors and most importantly fostering recommendations and referral business from satisfied customers.

There are many fine photographers who have been in the wedding photography business for a very long time. They have a great work ethic and know what the are doing, however, they have failed to keep up with current trends. Many of the younger set prefer strictly candid, impromptu, photo-journalistic coverage and certainly don't want their photographer to direct the entire event or intervene in any way. In my own case, I do feature elegant formals and aromatic casual images as well as a photo-journalistic approach. The couple will give me more time to do "my thing" and know that I am gonna pose a few shots during the affair but most of what I do nowadays is spontaneous candid shots. I also feature my "lighting like in the movies" and use multiple flash so I work with more than one assistant.

Yet another fact of life to consider. There is AGEISM. I am a 74-year-old geezer with a gray beard! Some of the young folks would rather have a young handsome fellow or a pretty young lady photographing their wedding. I survive in the business because of the high quality of my product and a lot of referral business in a number of ethnic and social communities. My crew is also much younger. I have been training the younger gang to take over the wedding department and after the upcoming season, in the Fall, I may walk down the aisle backward, camera in hand, for the last time. I can't remember the last time I had a weekend off!

Then consider the price! I would rather do one wedding for $5,000+ than 10 weddings for $500 each. So...I market in the high end and I am not looking for every wedding in town. I am not in competition with the amateurs (God bless them) and the high volume/low cost "wedding factories". Although I operate a full-time photography business, you could call me a "weekend warrior" because my "day job" is commercial and industrial photography and corporate portraiture. This enables me to do the weddings at a high end/low volume basis. A high volume business is operated another level but that would be incompatible with my pricing strategies.

So...I don't think the wedding photography business in dead or on life-support. Like everything else in the photography business and many other luxury products and service industries, success is out there but it's a matter of a good business plan, public relations, a sound pricing strategy and cutting through all the interference and dealing directly with the potential customers.

About far off countries and lands the other side of the pond. I used to attend many more international conventions. Years ago, at P.P.of A local and national conventions I would meet photographers from all over the world. At the time there were some radical changes in wedding photography. I photographer form Oklahoma, Bill Stockwell, came on the scene with a very romantic and casual approach- very unlike all the formal stuff that was prevalent in most geographic locations. There was soft focus, multiple exposures and Stockwell had "crazy" names for his shots "Madcap Misties" "Floral Fantasies" and he started off his lectures with this: "Y'all brave gunners enter the dreamy world of weddings and pick up all the rocks and stones and leave all the pretty flowers behind"! Thing was, he appealed the brides with a very romantic approach and became very successful. Many of the established photographers called him a "NUT" and totally derided his philosophies- except the smart ones!

Bill had an adage that I keep in mind to this day! "If you give the bride a bunch of weeds, she will toss them away but if you give her a bouquet of beautiful flowers, she will buy a lovely vase to put them in"! Think about that! So...there were photographers at these seminars from all over the world- Australia, New Zealand, North Africa, India and many countries in Europe. The ones that began to apply and integrate some of these new ideas into their routines became very successful. It seems there is a certain degree of universality in creative work. Of course, buying habits can vary greatly even within the same city, state, province, culture, and country, You need to do the marketing research and deiced if you are gonna be a follower or a pacesetter.


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Jan 29, 2019 16:20:35   #
Pistnbroke Loc: UK
 
Thanks for a very comprehensive comment .I agree.
The situation is a bit different in the UK. Most of the major hotel venues have gone to the package idea and the only venues not doing this are church halls/Social/working mens clubs. Usually people going to a register office (council run place to get married) will go to this sort of reception venue. These tend to be the less well heeled so the £399 weekend warrior takes over//loads of pissed up common people ..no thanks.
There is no one with the money to take on a hotel in the High court which would initiate a change in the law.

I think you are a little optomistic about quality winning ..people dont care ..10 days after the wedding its all forgotten. Never had a complaint about quality or composition just invented complaints from the day to get a refund which is why we have to go wired in order to rebuff the accusations.

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Oct 8, 2023 03:46:30   #
BandeauRouge Loc: usa
 
anyone can set themselves up as wedding photographers.. hell you can set yourself up with nothing more then a canon t100 and the kit lens.. just get basic photoshop and run the ai program. Youll be set.

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Oct 8, 2023 12:50:52   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
BandeauRouge wrote:
Anyone can set themselves up as wedding photographers.. hell you can set yourself up with nothing more than a Canon T100 and the kit lens.. just get basic photoshop and run the ai program. Youll be set.


You are 4 years late to the conversation. Your reparks the less, are still invalid. You left out some facts in your "all you need" list- the part about skill. technical savvy, patience, and artfulness. Yes, any decent camera system will work and all professional photographers need a good editing and post-processing system, but without all the necessary skill sets and experience, the "setup" will be useless- their business will be dead in the water in short order perhaps after a string or dissatisfied customers or even a couple of nasty lawsuits.

Seem nothing much has changed on UHH since 2016, SOME folks are still making disparaging remarks about the wedding photography industry and the weddings themselves.

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Oct 8, 2023 19:11:14   #
BandeauRouge Loc: usa
 
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-600mm-f%252f4e-fl-ed-vr.html

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-500mm-f%252f5.6e-pf-ed-vr.html

2 years ago, next week. My lil niece got married, and teh so called "wedding photographer" used one of these two lenses on a Nikon D750 body to do the wedding.

The wedding photographer had an assistant, that was admitting to "paying the photographer" to be allowed to come along and help out in order to "learn photography". The assistant was toting a D3500 with an unknown 300mm lens.

The actual "photographer" had come to the wedding spot 10 days earlier and looked around. At about 1130 am on a very sunny day. The actual wedding was held at 3pm. on an over cast day with minimal light. On my own light tests, the camera meter wanted me to slow my shutter speed down from 1/150 to 1/16.

The professional wedding photographer did not even have anything to deal with the fact that the sun was setting directly BEHIND the bride and groom the whole time... not even a CPL or lens hood or ND filter.

EVERY image she took had the lens set wide open. Absolute garbage. Perhaps the center 3rd of each image came out in focus. And on most of the images she let the photoshop AI thingy do little tornadoes of cartoon pumpkins swirling all over. It was embarressing. Geuninely embarrassing.

The "paying student" was actually equiped with a lens hood at least, and knew how to MOVE POSITION when shooting,,, to alleviate the sun.

The photographer market is a joke now, always will be. Anyone presenting as NON white heterosexual male always has instant doors opened for them no matter what limited ability they do. I have seen some of these self proclaimed photographers not even know how to TURN their own camera on.

In fact for a straight white man to become a photographer with actual clients, they need to specialize in crime scene photography, or product photography

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Oct 8, 2023 19:45:25   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
BandeauRouge wrote:
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-600mm-f%252f4e-fl-ed-vr.html

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-500mm-f%252f5.6e-pf-ed-vr.html

2 years ago, next week. My lil niece got married, and the so-called "wedding photographer" used one of these two lenses on a Nikon D750 body to do the wedding.

The wedding photographer had an assistant, that was admitting to "paying the photographer" to be allowed to come along and help out in order to "learn photography". The assistant was toting a D3500 with an unknown 300mm lens.

The actual "photographer" had come to the wedding spot 10 days earlier and looked around. At about 1130 am on a very sunny day. The actual wedding was held at 3 pm. on an overcast day with minimal light. On my own light tests, the camera meter wanted me to slow my shutter speed down from 1/150 to 1/16.

The professional wedding photographer did not even have anything to deal with the fact that the sun was setting directly BEHIND the bride and groom the whole time... not even a CPL or lens hood or ND filter.

EVERY image she took had the lens set wide open. Absolute garbage. Perhaps the center 3rd of each image came out in focus. And on most of the images, she let the Photoshop AI thingy do little tornadoes of cartoon pumpkins swirling all over. It was embarrassing. Genuinely embarrassing.

The "paying student" was actually equipped with a lens hood at least, and knew how to MOVE POSITION when shooting, to alleviate the sun.

The photographer market is a joke now and always will be. Anyone presenting as NON white heterosexual male always has instant doors opened for them no matter what limited ability they have. I have seen some of these self-proclaimed photographers not even know how to TURN their own cameras on.

In fact, for a straight white man to become a photographer with actual clients, they need to specialize in crime scene photography, or product photography
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product... (show quote)


Some folks represent themselves as professionals while, in fact, they are not- too bad! Perspective brides and grooms should vet their photographers, check their credentials, scrutinize their portfolios, seek out word-of-mouth referrals and recommendations, and make certain the photographer can produce the style they want.

Perhaps they should have consulted their knowledgeable uncle (you) who seems to know something about photography.

QAs far as sexual orientation and race, I prefer to think those traits or circumstances have nothing to do with a photographer's talent and skill. I know many photographers who are straight and white, like me, and of many are of diverse races and religious beliefs, some are of other sexual persuasions and they are all successful in business, and many are grand masters of their craft.

Obviously, the folks who covered your niece's weddings were less than professional.
Hopefully, the entire market is not inhabited by hacks and quacks.

Reply
Oct 8, 2023 23:50:28   #
BandeauRouge Loc: usa
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Some folks represent themselves as professionals while, in fact, they are not- too bad! Perspective brides and grooms should vet their photographers, check their credentials, scrutinize their portfolios, seek out word-of-mouth referrals and recommendations, and make certain the photographer can produce the style they want.

Perhaps they should have consulted their knowledgeable uncle (you) who seems to know something about photography.

QAs far as sexual orientation and race, I prefer to think those traits or circumstances have nothing to do with a photographer's talent and skill. I know many photographers who are straight and white, like me, and of many are of diverse races and religious beliefs, some are of other sexual persuasions and they are all successful in business, and many are grand masters of their craft.

Obviously, the folks who covered your niece's weddings were less than professional.
Hopefully, the entire market is not inhabited by hacks and quacks.
Some folks represent themselves as professionals w... (show quote)


The whole photographic market segment seems to run on the followin gconcept "you scrub my back, ill scrub yours". "you dont report me for the naked woman chained up in my back yard last night, and i wont report you for selling meth".

When projected image is the only thing that matters, no one has any concern about others image, as long as others claim their own projected image is real. Hard to digest? it comes down to "i know we are dumb, but if you say im actually moon gender, ill claim that you became a woman because you wore a dress this morning".

Just look at the actual websites for these frauds.. look at magnum? the big photo wharehouse magazine place thing.. in the last 8 years, no new white heterosexual men have joined..

Look at the art galleries, look at ilford website since the BLM crap started, god there are people becoming stars in the photography world simply by taking ten shots of drug addicts in philly, but only if black, or female.

Look at the advertising for main photographic retailer websites.. like MPB have the whole advertising scheme, in their own commercials, etc.. that any time a non white woman buys a used camera from them, they INSTANTLY become the greatest profressional photographer.

Actually saying that great revelation gets you kicked off of most main stream forums

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