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Another ETTR Discussion
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Jan 11, 2019 16:55:34   #
rmalarz (a regular here)
 
There is a current discussion regarding ETTR/EBTR (Expose To The Right/Expose Beyond The Right). By now the discussion is up to 5 pages with a lot of theoretical posts clouding the issue. In the words of Robert Mapplethorp, "Look at the pictures". Here's several of two subjects, one taken about 2 years ago and one taken this morning. Note the ETTR technique was used in each of these. The restaurant photograph was taken with a relatively new camera, for me. It's one of the first "field test" photos putting the test results settings, determined a week ago, to a field test. Up until now a Macbeth color chart was all that camera has seen.

There's a lot of hesitation on some people's parts regarding blowing highlights. If one tests their equipment this becomes a moot point. All of these were done in manual mode, spot metering on the brightest part of the scene, then exposure added to place that part in the appropriate Zone. In digital imaging, The Zone System is somewhat 180 degrees different than the film Zone System. Digital requires the whites to be placed and the blacks to be handled in processing. Black and white film requires the blacks to be placed and the processing is adjusted depending on where the highlight values fall.

Knowing your equipment through planned and controlled testing will remove the fear of blowing highlights.

Each has the ACR screenshot showing the "overexposed" areas, as considered by Adobe. Then, an SOOC version of the image, followed by the processed photograph. In the case of the bird, I included an intermediate step because I did lot of burning to darken the surrounding area and didn't want that clouding the discussion.
--Bob
ACR No Adjustment
ACR No Adjustment...
(Download)
SOOC
SOOC...
(Download)
Adjusted
Adjusted...
(Download)
ACR No Adjustment
ACR No Adjustment...
(Download)
SOOC
SOOC...
(Download)
Intermediate
Intermediate...
(Download)
Final
Final...
(Download)

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Jan 11, 2019 17:58:28   #
BlueMorel (a regular here)
 
Thanks, Bob, for the explanation and examples. With so few opportunities for overexposure due to cloudy days here, nevertheless I can apply, and do sometimes, your correcting to the left in post when needed. I agree that up to a point ETTR results are easier to correct than trying to lighten dark areas without creating highlight blowouts.
To my uneducated eye, I prefer your intermediate egret because the background looks more natural, but really I should copy it into my own processing program to see what highlights my eye and program detect.

BTW, as usual I'm viewing on my mobile phone, and for some reason the downloads briefly opened with a green cast over everything until the image fully loaded. Curious what might have caused this?

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Jan 11, 2019 18:09:33   #
rmalarz (a regular here)
 
You're welcome, BlueMorel. I've found that even on the overcast days, one can still observe the brighter portions of a scene. Once those are identified, spot metering on them and placing them in the appropriate Zone should work.

One possible explanation for the green cast is that I usually shoot with UniWB as the default WB. I thought I had overridden that with these. Perhaps your cellphone is capable of discerning that. It's interesting, none the less.
--Bob
BlueMorel wrote:
Thanks, Bob, for the explanation and examples. With so few opportunities for overexposure due to cloudy days here, nevertheless I can apply, and do sometimes, your correcting to the left in post when needed. I agree that up to a point ETTR results are easier to correct than trying to lighten dark areas without creating highlight blowouts.
To my uneducated eye, I prefer your intermediate egret because the background looks more natural, but really I should copy it into my own processing program to see what highlights my eye and program detect.

BTW, as usual I'm viewing on my mobile phone, and for some reason the downloads briefly opened with a green cast over everything until the image fully loaded. Curious what might have caused this?
Thanks, Bob, for the explanation and examples. Wi... (show quote)

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Jan 11, 2019 18:24:49   #
UTMike (a regular here)
 
Wow, Bob, you are more than just a pretty face - LOL.

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Jan 11, 2019 18:30:01   #
rmalarz (a regular here)
 
Mike, thank you so much for the compliment.
--Bob
UTMike wrote:
Wow, Bob, you are more than just a pretty face - LOL.

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Jan 11, 2019 19:45:55   #
BlueMorel (a regular here)
 
rmalarz wrote:
You're welcome, BlueMorel. I've found that even on the overcast days, one can still observe the brighter portions of a scene. Once those are identified, spot metering on them and placing them in the appropriate Zone should work.

One possible explanation for the green cast is that I usually shoot with UniWB as the default WB. I thought I had overridden that with these. Perhaps your cellphone is capable of discerning that. It's interesting, none the less.
--Bob

The green appears to go away immediately when the download opens fully, and I can't see it affecting the photo afterward. I had never noticed that effect before.

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Jan 11, 2019 19:59:23   #
rmalarz (a regular here)
 
This one has stumped me. I see the photo load somewhat pixilated in gray tones, but looks very correct quite quickly.
--Bob
BlueMorel wrote:
The green appears to go away immediately when the download opens fully, and I can't see it affecting the photo afterward. I had never noticed that effect before.

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 11:14:27   #
jackm1943 (a regular here)
 
rmalarz wrote:
There is a current discussion regarding ETTR/EBTR (Expose To The Right/Expose Beyond The Right). By now the discussion is up to 5 pages with a lot of theoretical posts clouding the issue. In the words of Robert Mapplethorp, "Look at the pictures". Here's several of two subjects, one taken about 2 years ago and one taken this morning. Note the ETTR technique was used in each of these. The restaurant photograph was taken with a relatively new camera, for me. It's one of the first "field test" photos putting the test results settings, determined a week ago, to a field test. Up until now a Macbeth color chart was all that camera has seen.

There's a lot of hesitation on some people's parts regarding blowing highlights. If one tests their equipment this becomes a moot point. All of these were done in manual mode, spot metering on the brightest part of the scene, then exposure added to place that part in the appropriate Zone. In digital imaging, The Zone System is somewhat 180 degrees different than the film Zone System. Digital requires the whites to be placed and the blacks to be handled in processing. Black and white film requires the blacks to be placed and the processing is adjusted depending on where the highlight values fall.

Knowing your equipment through planned and controlled testing will remove the fear of blowing highlights.

Each has the ACR screenshot showing the "overexposed" areas, as considered by Adobe. Then, an SOOC version of the image, followed by the processed photograph. In the case of the bird, I included an intermediate step because I did lot of burning to darken the surrounding area and didn't want that clouding the discussion.
--Bob
There is a current discussion regarding ETTR/EBTR ... (show quote)


I was going to ask this question in the other thread, but it might be more appropriate for this one. I have been, and plan to do more, bracketing around the maximum ETTR based on the camera's histogram to find the best image for processing in ACR. If desired, my camera can take as many as seven images at 1/3 stop increments around this exposure. I know that, in the camera, the histogram is based on the image as a jpeg. So, my question becomes, does ACR also base its histogram as a jpeg or is it based on all the data in the RAW file?

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Jan 12, 2019 12:19:46   #
rmalarz (a regular here)
 
Jack, that is a good question. I'd been believing it was based on the RAW file. I guess it's time to do a bit more research. I know just who to ask.
--Bob
jackm1943 wrote:
I was going to ask this question in the other thread, but it might be more appropriate for this one. I have been, and plan to do more, bracketing around the maximum ETTR based on the camera's histogram to find the best image for processing in ACR. If desired, my camera can take as many as seven images at 1/3 stop increments around this exposure. I know that, in the camera, the histogram is based on the image as a jpeg. So, my question becomes, does ACR also base its histogram as a jpeg or is it based on all the data in the RAW file?
I was going to ask this question in the other thre... (show quote)

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Jan 12, 2019 12:49:44   #
jackm1943 (a regular here)
 
rmalarz wrote:
Jack, that is a good question. I'd been believing it was based on the RAW file. I guess it's time to do a bit more research. I know just who to ask.
--Bob


I should mention that I use the ACR histogram to select the best image to process. If I see any signs of blow outs, I go to the next lower exposure.

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Jan 12, 2019 12:59:26   #
rmalarz (a regular here)
 
Jack, according to Jeff Schewe, "...Camera Raw rips the entire raw image and does a demosaic and application of ACR defaults to generate the preview and the histogram (which is displaying the resulting graph based on the output color space set in ACR Workflow Options). ACR doesn't use ANY settings from the camera's JPEG settings and the only thing that ACR uses from the raw file is white balance info and the ISO metadata..."
--Bob
jackm1943 wrote:
I was going to ask this question in the other thread, but it might be more appropriate for this one. I have been, and plan to do more, bracketing around the maximum ETTR based on the camera's histogram to find the best image for processing in ACR. If desired, my camera can take as many as seven images at 1/3 stop increments around this exposure. I know that, in the camera, the histogram is based on the image as a jpeg. So, my question becomes, does ACR also base its histogram as a jpeg or is it based on all the data in the RAW file?
I was going to ask this question in the other thre... (show quote)

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 13:38:56   #
jackm1943 (a regular here)
 
rmalarz wrote:
Jack, according to Jeff Schewe, "...Camera Raw rips the entire raw image and does a demosaic and application of ACR defaults to generate the preview and the histogram (which is displaying the resulting graph based on the output color space set in ACR Workflow Options). ACR doesn't use ANY settings from the camera's JPEG settings and the only thing that ACR uses from the raw file is white balance info and the ISO metadata..."
--Bob


Excellent Bob, I was hoping something like that to be the case. I'm not sure how you find this type of info, but I much appreciate it.
Thanks, JackM

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Jan 12, 2019 13:44:18   #
rmalarz (a regular here)
 
Jack, my first resort is Google. If, in this case, that didn't work, I was going to call Jeff and ask him.
--Bob
jackm1943 wrote:
Excellent Bob, I was hoping something like that to be the case. I'm not sure how you find this type of info, but I much appreciate it.
Thanks, JackM

| Reply
Jan 12, 2019 15:25:13   #
AndyH (a regular here)
 
So, if I’m understanding correctly, I should be taking a test shot by reducing the in-camera blinkies till they disappear, then bracketing around that. The go to LR and place the highlights on Zone IX.

But how do I apply the compensation factor in shooting?

Andy

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Jan 12, 2019 16:35:23   #
Bipod (a regular here)
 
rmalarz wrote:
There is a current discussion regarding ETTR/EBTR (Expose To The Right/Expose Beyond The Right). By now the discussion is up to 5 pages with a lot of theoretical posts clouding the issue. In the words of Robert Mapplethorp, "Look at the pictures". Here's several of two subjects, one taken about 2 years ago and one taken this morning. Note the ETTR technique was used in each of these. The restaurant photograph was taken with a relatively new camera, for me. It's one of the first "field test" photos putting the test results settings, determined a week ago, to a field test. Up until now a Macbeth color chart was all that camera has seen.

There's a lot of hesitation on some people's parts regarding blowing highlights. If one tests their equipment this becomes a moot point. All of these were done in manual mode, spot metering on the brightest part of the scene, then exposure added to place that part in the appropriate Zone. In digital imaging, The Zone System is somewhat 180 degrees different than the film Zone System. Digital requires the whites to be placed and the blacks to be handled in processing. Black and white film requires the blacks to be placed and the processing is adjusted depending on where the highlight values fall.

Knowing your equipment through planned and controlled testing will remove the fear of blowing highlights.

Each has the ACR screenshot showing the "overexposed" areas, as considered by Adobe. Then, an SOOC version of the image, followed by the processed photograph. In the case of the bird, I included an intermediate step because I did lot of burning to darken the surrounding area and didn't want that clouding the discussion.
--Bob
There is a current discussion regarding ETTR/EBTR ... (show quote)

Never let theory "cloud the issues".
Obvously a perpetual motion machine is only as good as its materials and workmanship,
and the skill of the seasoned professional using it.

| Reply
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