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Constant ETTR...
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Jan 11, 2019 13:45:05   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 

--Bob
via the lens wrote:
Ansel did not meter for highlights, whites, he metered for shadows because that is what worked for film, not digital.

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Jan 11, 2019 13:45:46   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 

--Bob
via the lens wrote:
ETTR is not about overexposing, it is about exposing correctly for digital images taken in RAW. When shooting JPEG one would need to be very cautious with the highlights.

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Jan 11, 2019 13:48:02   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
I've found that the amount of additional exposure varies from camera to camera. Please, don't interpret that as model to model. Identical models can vary slightly in the amount of additional exposure they'll handle.
--Bob
gessman wrote:
...we seem to have some opposing sides going on here. If that's the case it would seem to raise a question which would be, roughly, what is the amount of exposure adjustment latitude available in a Raw file to allow pulling up the desired detail in both the highlights and shadows, 1, 2, 3 stops or more or less? I've never had a reason to check that out.

In other words is there really "dead on" exposure and is it a necessity to nail it just to avoid having to move a couple of sliders a notch or two in adjusting a Raw file? I get the desire for assurance inherent in treating each exposure individually but is it even possible to pull everything together in post, and I ask that well aware that I may be committing heresay. If not then why bother with post and Raw? Could the guy possibly get away with what i got from what he said he's doing by just getting "close enough" to stay within the Raw latitude of adjustment margins? I know there's some eyes rollin' about right now and I apologize for taking up so much time here.

There's a lot of talk about starting off with a "dumbed down" or unadjusted Raw file that MUST be adjusted in post but then some are saying that exposure must be "right in the camera" in order to have the desired detail in the final adjusted image. That sounds like a contradiction to this old uneducated farm boy from Arkansas. I'm convinced it's just a matter of me not understanding the finer points and I'm sure somebody will bail me out here on this and I'd like to thank 'em in advance.

...and Bipod, please don't pull your hair out. I'll eventually shut up and go away.
...we seem to have some opposing sides going on he... (show quote)

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Jan 11, 2019 13:50:39   #
Real Nikon Lover Loc: Simi Valley, CA
 
Bipod wrote:
If sensors had infinite dynamic range, then one would never need to set exposure
at all in the camera -- just fix it in post procssing.

But sensors do not have unlimited dynamic range. And the number of stops that
can be encountered in nature is unlimited. Imagine yourself trying to photograph
sunspots. Or the sun rising over a train tunnel. Or just bright snow and shadows on a
sunny winter's day. And once detail has been lost from a blown highlight, there
is no getting it back. (Shadows that look pure black to the naked eye aren't and detail
can be recovered in processing, but not blown highlights.....
I find this extremely depressing.
If sensors had infinite dynamic range, then one wo... (show quote)


Great reply! Totally agree. Nothing beats calibrating your white balance at the beginning of any shooting session where lights are either fixed or changing. I have never EVER seen a professional camera crew NOT check lighting against white balance before beginning a shoot. I am not a professional in any regard. In fact a novice amateur. However, I have worked dozens upon dozens of movie sets in my career and made it an art of observation watching the photographers do their set ups.

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Jan 11, 2019 13:54:53   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
IDguy wrote:
Maybe he lives in the Arctic.



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Jan 11, 2019 14:00:44   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Hopefully, he's tested extensively for his specific model. I've had similar experience in Aperture priority and EC at +1, although I wouldn't say always / everything for my images. Maybe he's more consistent in the light / situations where he works.


Thanks. I wish I could remember where I read that so I could go back and better look at the context. Perhaps it'll "bubble up" to me in the next little bit. I, having no particular reason to feel qualified, would also think that he might have a limited existence, giving much of what I'm hearing about exposure.

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Jan 11, 2019 14:02:57   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
catchlight.. wrote:
ETTR again ... Hmmmmm

Maybe back in the film days and with early digital cameras. Today much more detail is stored in the shadow areas.

Bracketing is a far better solution... ETTR generally is a waste of time if under the gun for results.

But, retirement can allow time to experiment and elevate one's perception of what is possible with that thing that freezes time...


Yep - it's a race between that and the dwindling grey matter. In my case, I think the dwindling grey matter is winning.

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Jan 11, 2019 14:14:07   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
Bipod wrote:
If sensors had infinite dynamic range, then one would never need to set exposure
at all in the camera -- just fix it in post procssing.

But sensors do not have unlimited dynamic range. And the number of stops that
can be encountered in nature is unlimited. Imagine yourself trying to photograph
sunspots. Or the sun rising over a train tunnel. Or just bright snow and shadows on a
sunny winter's day. And once detail has been lost from a blown highlight, there
is no getting it back. (Shadows that look pure black to the naked eye aren't and detail
can be recovered in processing, but not blown highlights..)

In a very contrasty situation, you are going to lose detail in either the shadows, highlights,
or a bit of both. If you leave it up thte camea, you'll get the latter. But that doesn't
necessary look the best.

Shadows that appear pure black sometimess aren't, and the detail can
be restored in processing. But blown highlights are gone forever.

Dialing in 1.5 stops of additional exposure (over what the meter calculates) is
asking for blown highlights. But of course, it depends on what and where one
phtographs.

What's a "seasoned pro" -- some guy who takes passport photos? Or school pictures?

The statement "+1.5 exposure comp because that's where white sits on the spectrum"
makes no sense at all. White isn't in the spectrum--it's a mixture of spectral colors
(according to some guy named Isaac Newton--but then, he wasn't a "seasoned pro").

But there's a another reason not to ignore exposure and then try to fix it in post-processing:
you may not remember how the original scene looked. For example, in a portrait, you
may have forgotten exactly how light or dark the sitter's complexion was. Whatever it
actually was, in a close up autoexposure will give him an olive complexion (middle tone).

That's how autoexposure works: it takes whatever it meters (average, center-weighted, spot,
matrix or whatever), and adjusts the exposure so it's portrayed as middle gray (or some middle tone).
What else can it do? It doesn't know what it's looking at, or what tone anything actually is. It just
see patterns of light, and applies an algorithm.

Lots of people let their camera chose the exposure -- they just leave it in Program Mode.
Most of the time, that sort of works, provided you're not too particular and are willing to try to
patch it up in post processing.

But the reason one hires a photographer is to get a photographer, not just a camera. If that person
waits until post-processing to try to fix exposure, he's taking a big risk. The event or wedding is
over, no opportunity to try again.

Most camera users today don't make prints and just display images files once or twice on a small,
low-contrast LCD/LED computer monitor. If that's the "final image" then why not leave the camera
in Program Mode, leave it in autofocus, and leave the same zoom lens mounted all the time? No need
for full frame, let along anything larger. And why even bother to keep the lens clean--nobody will
notice a few fingerprints.

I find this extremely depressing.
If sensors had infinite dynamic range, then one wo... (show quote)


Sorry I ruined your day - wasn't my intention. As a part-time experimenter/wildlife snapshooter, so to speak, I haven't delved into many of the finer points of real live photography but it didn't seem to me as though you were trying to pull my leg with anything in your reply but then I'm not sure I'd know in all cases that you touched on. From my perspective, I read something someone said and thought it would be worthwhile if I asked the resident experts about it. Pretty simple from a simple mind. Please pardon me for taking you someplace you didn't want to go. I'll try to do better.

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Jan 11, 2019 14:27:47   #
blackest Loc: Ireland
 
gessman wrote:
...we seem to have some opposing sides going on here. If that's the case it would seem to raise a question which would be, roughly, what is the amount of exposure adjustment latitude available in a Raw file to allow pulling up the desired detail in both the highlights and shadows, 1, 2, 3 stops or more or less? I've never had a reason to check that out.

In other words is there really "dead on" exposure and is it a necessity to nail it just to avoid having to move a couple of sliders a notch or two in adjusting a Raw file? I get the desire for assurance inherent in treating each exposure individually but is it even possible to pull everything together in post, and I ask that well aware that I may be committing heresay. If not then why bother with post and Raw? Could the guy possibly get away with what i got from what he said he's doing by just getting "close enough" to stay within the Raw latitude of adjustment margins? I know there's some eyes rollin' about right now and I apologize for taking up so much time here.

There's a lot of talk about starting off with a "dumbed down" or unadjusted Raw file that MUST be adjusted in post but then some are saying that exposure must be "right in the camera" in order to have the desired detail in the final adjusted image. That sounds like a contradiction to this old uneducated farm boy from Arkansas. I'm convinced it's just a matter of me not understanding the finer points and I'm sure somebody will bail me out here on this and I'd like to thank 'em in advance.

...and Bipod, please don't pull your hair out. I'll eventually shut up and go away.
...we seem to have some opposing sides going on he... (show quote)


Are you familiar with recording on cassette tape set the levels too high and the loud bits got clipped , too low and the quiet bits got lost in hiss. Digital photography is a lot like that whites are loud blacks are quiet. Ettr essentially means exposing for as long as possible without the whites getting too loud if you had a scale of 0 to 99 then bout 98 , 99 is the limit anything higher is off the scale and is pure white. At the other end of the scale you are making the dark values as high as possible so they are not at the same level as the hiss.

Depending on the scene this can result in over or under exposure but you can post process to put the tones where they should be. If the bright areas of your scene are not too bright you should have better shadow detail. If things are very bright the shadow detail will be worse but you can bring up the black base level which can look ok. Jpeg shooting trys to properly expose the midtone and highlights and shadows fall where they do. Ok quite a lot of the time but often makes a blue sky white as the highlight gets over exposed.So really Ettr is expose so you record the strongest signal and the widest range of values. With high dynamic range exposures your shadows will look worse but your highlights will not be blown. It will work best as base ISO although you run the risk of the shutter speed being too low. Especially so if your lens is not so fast. Sometimes you would be better bracketing the exposure.

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Jan 11, 2019 14:28:55   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
If he's a "seasoned pro," seems unlikely he's not getting the results he wants (doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? )

On the other hand, for purposes of most of us here, it would good to learn more details, such as your mention of light (consistent, no extremes?) and conditions. A single comment out of a possible wider discussion could be misleading.

On the third hand, when shooting jpg with my bridge camera, slight under-exposure was preferred over slight over-exposure for tweaking in pp. Jpg only, bridge camera, about 2/3 stop.
If he's a "seasoned pro," seems unlikely... (show quote)


I have to apologize for being so unspecific about the person in question who made that comment and the context it involved. If I ever do something like that again, you can bet your sweet bippie that I won't bring it up in uhh. I didn't think much of the comment at the time and by the time it kept festering up in the middle of the night, I'd lost track of where I read the comment. I probably misused the term "seasoned pro" but thought I wanted to leave the impression that he was a pro and given that he was the interviewee on the subject of photography that he likely deserved to be recognized as a veteran photographer. I suppose I could and should have said that differently. Pardon me, please.

I recognize your admonishment in your second paragraph.

In your third paragraph, about your SX50, it sounds like you did about the same thing that guy says he does just on the other side of "0" which, for whatever the reason, might predispose you to understand his actions? I don't recall what kind of photography he does so I'll have to pass on that for now. He could be one of those in-house portrait photographers who put his camera on a tripod and retires thirty years later without ever having taken the camera off the tripod. At this point, I just cannot address those concerns. Thanks for your reply.

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Jan 11, 2019 14:29:40   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
tinplater wrote:
Really appreciate your post, very informative. However I find your last sentence surprising. Why does it matter to you what experience and preferences others have? The point is to enjoy what you do and the way that you do it, not what a critic thinks of how you accomplished it.



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Jan 11, 2019 14:30:17   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
IDguy wrote:
Some interesting perspectives. But you don’t seem to understand P mode. P mode is the same as A or S mode with regard to exposure, except providing a range of shutter speed/fstop combinations to choose from by roatating the thumbwheel. You still control everything else including focus and metering mode and exposure compensation (EC). Perhaps you mean Auto mode?

You can’t use EC with Auto mode. I never use Auto. My D800 didn’t have it.



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Jan 11, 2019 14:35:01   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Constant over exposure is not a good idea in my opinion. If you recall previous threads that you posted there are specific conditions for ETTR and EBTR to work. The scene determines the exposure, not the sensor DR.

Now the person you listened to was possibly talking about compensating the histogram the camera offers as it is still showing a JPG histogram and as such lying when using raw (Other threads exist on that.).


Yes, of course, and I didn't catch how he meters, if it's spot on the brightest highlight or what. I'm hoping I'll remember where I saw that so I can get more pertinent information about his technique and why he does that. Thanks!

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Jan 11, 2019 14:37:07   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
via the lens wrote:
Can you support that statement, please, that "Today much more detail is stored in the shadow areas." What you have stated is contrary to my knowledge of digital sensors so I'd be interested in seeing the supporting material. As far as I've learned, the most image information in digital is contained in the first half of the highlights on the sensor scale. From the Manual of Photography, "...this means that half of the available levels (2048) will be recorded for the brightest zone of the image (the highest exposure stop). For each stop down the scale of the recorded luminance range, the number of levels will be halved (1024 levels will be allocated to the next stop, 512 to the one after that, etc)....
Can you support that statement, please, that "... (show quote)


Thanks for your contribution to the thread.

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Jan 11, 2019 14:38:06   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
srt101fan wrote:
I think you've hit the nail on the head with your comment re spot metering the brightest part of the scene and then increasing exposure. I think rmalarz and Gene51, two of the UHH luminaries, use this approach routinely.


I've also seen those comments.

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