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Learned something new to me about exposure compensation
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Jan 9, 2019 12:02:09   #
BebuLamar (a regular here)
 
Cwilson341 wrote:
I agree with Linda. Topics like this are very helpful. While the answers make a lot of sense the fact that the topic makes us stop and think about the logic of how our cameras work is educational and helpful.


The logic is very simple. The EC only changes the meter reading regardless of modes. In any auto modes (including auto ISO) the camera would changes other parameters because the meter is giving it a different reading.

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Jan 9, 2019 12:23:59   #
swartfort
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
According to the user manual for the Canon 7D Mark II, settings will only change in M if you are using auto ISO.


I didn't look in my manual for my D7500, but anecdotally, When I shoot in M + Auto ISO, I use the EC when I am shooting light/white colored birds (often in motion/flight). I take several test shots and after each I check the exposure on my back screen using the "blinkies" function. I can see the difference as I attempt to limit the over exposed areas of the image (obviously the auto ISO is working). I then look at the EXIF data and see what the settings are for Shutter speed, Aperture, AND ISO. If they are in acceptable parameters, I shoot away freely, if not, I have to decide where to compromise to get the exposure where I need it. It is ALWAYS a compromise. Something has to give from one or more of the three to get exposure correct.

Just because I am very aware of the exposure triangle, how and why settings work in combination of each other, and how changing each individually or in combination will affect the IQ, I am not so proud as to not work with the tools in my camera to help me get more keepers on my card. The less I have to do in post, the happier I am. That is the ultimate goal right?

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Jan 9, 2019 12:25:41   #
Rickoshay
 
Cwilson341 wrote:
.........While the answers make a lot of sense the fact that the topic makes us stop and think about the logic of how our cameras work is educational and helpful.


I learn soooooo much from you folks! I look forward to my email every day. Seriously. I have not missed a day since I was accepted into the group back in October.

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Jan 9, 2019 12:26:37   #
Bill_de (a regular here)
 
These discussions are very good ... to get you thinking! Not everything said is true for every camera.

But now a good read through that section of the users manual should be easier to understand.

--

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Jan 9, 2019 12:28:32   #
Linda From Maine (a regular here)
 
swartfort wrote:
... The less I have to do in post, the happier I am. That is the ultimate goal right?
Well, not in my world, which is mostly about artistic interpretation But your "not too proud" comment is related to the OP (and cwilson's comment) in that the more we understand how our camera's functions work, the more we can personalize what works best for our individual goals.

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Jan 9, 2019 12:41:07   #
swartfort
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Well, not in my world, which is mostly about artistic interpretation But your "not too proud" comment is related to the OP (and cwilson's comment) in that the more we understand how our camera's functions work, the more we can personalize what works best for our individual goals.


So true Linda, as always, you are spot on. We, myself included, often forget that not ever person who reads posts on UHH derive the same pleasure from their photography. What would not be a keeper for some, would be a trophy for others. Image and vision combined in the eye of the photographer makes the hobby as unique as it is. Some of us are gear collectors, some technical whizzes, some PP geniuses.... there can be passions for all.

I just have concern that newbies, like I was just a year ago, get caught up in the M only mentality that states that any use of the camera's tools make for an inferior photographer. I guess I refer to that as M snob mentality. I firmly believe there is a time and a place for all of the techno whiz bang features both in the camera and in our PP programs/computers.

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Jan 9, 2019 12:51:39   #
R.G. (a regular here)
 
There are some things that are predictably universal across all brands. In all cases, what the EC does is it changes the targeted level of exposure. How the camera goes about achieving the new targeted level of exposure depends on what mode you're in.

In fully manual mode it's up to the user to achieve the targeted level of exposure (by selecting all of the required settings), and he/she knows what the targeted level of exposure is by consulting the camera's meter - so that is what changes when you adjust EC.

In any of the partly auto modes the camera makes the final choice of setting to achieve the targeted level of exposure - so that is when you can expect a setting to change when you adjust EC. The setting that changes depends on which setting/s the camera is controlling, and that in turn depends on what mode you're in.

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Jan 9, 2019 13:05:34   #
larryepage
 
R.G. wrote:


...In any of the partly auto modes the camera makes the final choice of setting to achieve the targeted level of exposure - so that is when you can expect a setting to change when you adjust EC. The setting that changes depends on which setting/s the camera is controlling, and that in turn depends on what mode you're in.


I suppose it may just be language, but I'm not sure that it's 100% accurate to say that the camera makes the choices in the automatic modes. That's only true to the extent that the photographers allows it to happen. And even in Manual, if the photographer just dials shutter speed and aperture to balance the meter in the viewfinder, one could say that the camera has made the decision just the same. I prefer to say that the camera does some of the work for me. I still make the decisions.

For example, in my viewfinders, when I am using Manual mode, my "match needle" meter has graduations on both sides which allow me, if I choose, to do Exposure Compensation on the fly without even pushing the EC button...I just adjust to the indicator one stop (or however many I choose) to the left instead of putting it in the middle. But if I want to do a uniform one stop underexposure, I can just dial -1 stop of EC and adjust until the meter display is centered for every exposure...same result with less remembering and thinking...the meter remembers for me. If I am using any of the automated modes, I'd have to dial in the stop of EC to get the same result.

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Jan 9, 2019 13:14:24   #
R.G. (a regular here)
 
larryepage wrote:
....I'm not sure that it's 100% accurate to say that the camera makes the choices in the automatic modes. That's only true to the extent that the photographers allows it to happen...


In any of the automatic modes the camera is controlling something, and that's true whether the photographer wants it to happen or not. The camera makes its adjustments depending on a) the photographer's settings and b) what the targeted level of exposure is. Regardless of what the photographer changes, the camera will make a corresponding change to achieve the targeted level of exposure. In all cases the final determinant is the targeted level of exposure.

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Jan 9, 2019 13:16:00   #
Bill_de (a regular here)
 
larryepage wrote:
I suppose it may just be language, but I'm not sure that it's 100% accurate to say that the camera makes the choices in the automatic modes.


I only speak American English, and I'd say that R.G. is "spot on".

I did learn one thing early on in life, and that is you have to read all the words. R.G. clearly said "final" choice, which is 100% correct. After the photographer does his/her thing and presses the shutter release the camera does in fact make the final choice.

--

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Jan 9, 2019 13:39:35   #
Bipod
 
pesfls wrote:
I’ve been using a digital body about 18 months and have been amazed, frustrated & what not by all the options, menus & complexity of these machines. I use a Nikon Df fwiw.

What I’ve noticed is that sometimes ec doesn’t seem to do anything I can see. After fiddling around with this I’ve learned that the phenomenon is related to shooting in full manual. What I now understand is that in full manual mode using the ec dial only changes the meter scale, not the exposure itself. So one must readjust exposure manually after entering ec mode to recenter the meter reading. In the other modes such as aperature priority the ec dial functions as I expected. I had no idea this was the case when in full manual.

So I pass on my admittedly naive notion as false. Perhaps this thing I’ve learned will be of use to another shooter. That’s my only purpose in bringing this up. It seems one could spend years mastering all the options built into these modern cameras. A good day to all.
I’ve been using a digital body about 18 months and... (show quote)

You are the victim of a "mode" In user interface design, modes are considered
a (sometimes necessary) evil.

In your car, the windshield wiper knob turns on the winshield wipers because
it is wired to the wipers and the headlight knob turns on the headlights because it
is wired to the headlights. Simple.

But in an embedded system such as your digital camera, any knob or button can
control any function. They are just input devices to a computer.. So a switch
different modes of operation, or work in combination with other switches.

On a digital camera, unlike an automobile, there are very few physical buttons and
switches, becaue they are expensive and take up space. So these few are generally
"overloaded" with functions. If your car was a digital camera, it would work
like this:

"In foobar mode, to turn on the headlights, hold down Button A while pushing
Button B twice. But in barfoo mode, to turn on the headlights, push Button B
then turn Knob C clockwise. Holding down Button A while pushing Button B
twice turns on the wipers."

In other words, some very smart Japanese engineer figures out what he thinks each
control should do in each mode. He may have a degree from pristigious Tokyo
University, but in all likelihood doesn't actually own a camera (he uses his smartphone
to take pictures). And he doesn't have to remember what the camera controls do--
he' s just designing it.

Back in the 1980s, people used to complain about programming their VCRs. Little
did they know what was coming....

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Jan 9, 2019 14:13:43   #
amfoto1 (a regular here)
 
pesfls wrote:
I’ve been using a digital body about 18 months and have been amazed, frustrated & what not by all the options, menus & complexity of these machines. I use a Nikon Df fwiw.

What I’ve noticed is that sometimes ec doesn’t seem to do anything I can see. After fiddling around with this I’ve learned that the phenomenon is related to shooting in full manual. What I now understand is that in full manual mode using the ec dial only changes the meter scale, not the exposure itself. So one must readjust exposure manually after entering ec mode to recenter the meter reading. In the other modes such as aperature priority the ec dial functions as I expected. I had no idea this was the case when in full manual.

So I pass on my admittedly naive notion as false. Perhaps this thing I’ve learned will be of use to another shooter. That’s my only purpose in bringing this up. It seems one could spend years mastering all the options built into these modern cameras. A good day to all.
I’ve been using a digital body about 18 months and... (show quote)


Exposure Compensation provides a means of overriding AUTO EXPOSURE modes: Aperture Priority AE, Shutter Priority AE and Program AE. Also Manual with Auto ISO AE that some of the more recent camera models offer. (Note: when it's used with Auto ISO, Manual becomes another AE mode).

E.C. has no function in MANUAL EXPOSURE mode (M without Auto ISO). If you think about it, in fully Manual mode there's simply nothing for E.C. to "override". It's not needed because when using Manual exposure mode you can freely vary the way an image is captured by adjusting any of the three Manual exposure parameters: aperture size, shutter speed and/or ISO sensitivity.

I don't know exactly how E.C. works on a Nikon Df. I shoot with Canon cameras and on all the ones I've used the same dial and readout scale are used to change other exposure parameters in Manual mode, as are used for E.C. in Auto Exposure modes. This sometimes confuses people thinking they are dialing in E.C. in Manual mode... but they really aren't.

It appears your Nikon has a separate dial dedicated to only E.C. I'd expect that would simply do nothing, would be disabled when the camera is set to fully Manual exposure mode. This seems to be confirmed by your description.

Some of the "super auto modes" found on today's digital cameras also may disable E.C. For example, full "Auto" is sort of a "point n shoot" mode that probably uses Program AE, but also automates much more in all cameras I'm aware of... it sets the way autofocus works, forces you to use Auto White Balance and even limits the type of image file that can be saved. It also prevents E.C. from working. Some of the "scene modes" such as "Sports", "Landscape", "Portrait", if a camera has them, also may prevent E.C. from being used.

However these modes that I call "super auto" are all pretty much the opposite of Manual, which is what the original poster appears to be commenting or asking about.

I hope this helps make sense of it.

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Jan 9, 2019 14:43:49   #
R.G. (a regular here)
 
amfoto1 wrote:
.....It appears your Nikon has a separate dial dedicated to only E.C. I'd expect that would simply do nothing, would be disabled when the camera is set to fully Manual exposure mode.....


Adjusting EC would alter the targeted level of exposure as indicated by the camera's meter. A group of settings that gave a neutral or zero exposure as indicated by the meter would not continue to do that after you adjusted EC (assuming the viewed scene stays the same). The centre or zero point on the meter scale indicates the targeted level of exposure, and adjusting EC causes the centre point to indicate the new targeted level of exposure.

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Jan 9, 2019 14:58:26   #
a6k (a regular here)
 
kpmac wrote:
Does it even matter if you are shooting in RAW? I think not.

As a general idea, raw does not negate ISO or EC but it will depend on other settings for some cameras.

For example, here is what my Sony a6500 said when on "M" and fixed ISO and attempting EC.

Translation: in order to allow EC, something in the exposure combination must be under the camera's control rather than the manual control.

So it's like the Nikon in the OP but it gives a warning.


(Download)

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Jan 9, 2019 15:08:51   #
BebuLamar (a regular here)
 
a6k wrote:
As a general idea, raw does not negate ISO or EC but it will depend on other settings for some cameras.

For example, here is what my Sony a6500 said when on "M" and fixed ISO and attempting EC.

Translation: in order to allow EC, something in the exposure combination must be under the camera's control rather than the manual control.

So it's like the Nikon in the OP but it gives a warning.


Not like the Nikon. All of the Nikon's allow you to set the EC in any modes. In all modes it does exactly the same thing that is to alter the meter reading and that is all it does. Any auto modes would have to refer to meter to set the other parameters. In manual too if you refer to the meter (that is adjust your settings until the meter indicates 0) the EC is applied to your exposure.
It's a very simple thing. Nikon has been doing this since the late 70's.

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