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Digital Noise
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Dec 15, 2018 11:26:01   #
selmslie (a regular here)
 
TriX wrote:
Every stop and 1/2 stop you can eek out prior to noise reduction SW is a big help ....

As you can see for these two cameras, there is a very small difference in noise level for a 1/2 stop change in exposure.

So long as the ISO provides a noise level that is in the green zone (the bar on the right) you will see virtually no noise near middle gray (18%). Both of these cameras deliver this from about ISO 800 down to base ISO. The change in noise level is gradual above ISO 800 and both cameras reach the red level at about ISO 128000.

Other cameras and sensor sizes will plot differently and might appear to show noise earlier or later than these two. But in all cases, it takes a substantial change in exposure to make a difference because the slopes of the plots will be about the same as what is seen here.


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Dec 15, 2018 12:09:34   #
tomcat
 
jonjacobik wrote:
That's what I do. Auto-iso on and 1/2000 often produces nice images at iso 3200 - iso 10000, but they have noise.

That's why I'm looking to find the best tools to resolve noise.

My camera will go to ISO 51,200, but what's the point if the photo is unusable.

Thanks


This is where Topaz AI Clear comes in. There is not going to be a cheap solution to the noise problem. I estimate about $4800---FF Sony A7iii camera body, f/1.8 or 1.4 lens, Topaz Studio and AI Clear.

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Dec 15, 2018 12:14:29   #
tomcat
 
selmslie wrote:
As you can see for these two cameras, there is a very small difference in noise level for a 1/2 stop change in exposure.

So long as the ISO provides a noise level that is in the green zone (the bar on the right) you will see virtually no noise near middle gray (18%). Both of these cameras deliver this from about ISO 800 down to base ISO. The change in noise level is gradual above ISO 800 and both cameras reach the red level at about ISO 128000.

Other cameras and sensor sizes will plot differently and might appear to show noise earlier or later than these two. But in all cases, it takes a substantial change in exposure to make a difference because the slopes of the plots will be about the same as what is seen here.
As you can see for these two cameras, there is a v... (show quote)


WOW!! I did not know that the 5D Mark iii was that bad. If it compares favorably to a D610, then that is bad........ No where near what the new Sonys can do for low noise....

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Dec 15, 2018 13:09:37   #
TriX (a regular here)
 
Neilhunt wrote:
...If you crank ISO, you are not winning with ET/BTR, because there you are raising the noise floor as much as you will does it in post...


Sorry no, that is not correct. Please see my post above on the subject and read the link I posted. A common misconception. But many shooter, especially Canon, know better.

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Dec 15, 2018 13:22:06   #
TriX (a regular here)
 
selmslie wrote:
As you can see for these two cameras, there is a very small difference in noise level for a 1/2 stop change in exposure.

So long as the ISO provides a noise level that is in the green zone (the bar on the right) you will see virtually no noise near middle gray (18%). Both of these cameras deliver this from about ISO 800 down to base ISO. The change in noise level is gradual above ISO 800 and both cameras reach the red level at about ISO 128000.

Other cameras and sensor sizes will plot differently and might appear to show noise earlier or later than these two. But in all cases, it takes a substantial change in exposure to make a difference because the slopes of the plots will be about the same as what is seen here.
As you can see for these two cameras, there is a v... (show quote)


I can’t speak for the D610, but I can tell you from LONG experience shooting low light that there is a VERY noticeable difference in noise between ISO 12,800 and 25,600 with my 5D3. Now you may not see much difference between ISO 400 and 800 on most cameras, but when you get right to the edge where the noise is noticeable (which is where you are in a low light, high ISO situation), then 1 stop is critical.

Real world example: I attend a yearly Christmas party in a large house that attracts some of the better bluegrass musicians in NC. Last year I shot my 5D3 with an 85 f1.8, typically close to wide open, at the slowest SS I could get away with and ISOs between 8,000 and 12,800. The noise was barely noticeable. This year as I prepare for the party, I’d like to take my Fuji (much lighter, less obtrusive), but I know from experience that anything beyond ISO 6,400 is unusable and 3,200 is better - there is a “hard stop” for me at 6400, and going up 1 more stop isn’t an option, so VERY important. Now maybe next year, I’ll have saved up enough for that Fuji 56mm f1.2 (for $800) but tomorrow, I’ll drag out that big heavy Canon because it will do the job. And that is how 1 stop makes a big difference (about $800 in this case).

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Dec 15, 2018 13:26:37   #
TheShoe (a regular here)
 
Kmgw9v wrote:
DXO



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Dec 15, 2018 14:58:15   #
selmslie (a regular here)
 
tomcat wrote:
WOW!! I did not know that the 5D Mark iii was that bad. If it compares favorably to a D610, then that is bad........ No where near what the new Sonys can do for low noise....

Which new Sonys? The D600 is from 2012, the A7 II from 2014 and the A7 III from 2018.

Even the 8 year old D600 still holds its own against both Sony 24 MP. Not bad at all.


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Dec 15, 2018 15:10:57   #
selmslie (a regular here)
 
TriX wrote:
... I can tell you from LONG experience shooting low light that there is a VERY noticeable difference in noise between ISO 12,800 and 25,600 with my 5D3. Now you may not see much difference between ISO 400 and 800 on most cameras, but when you get right to the edge where the noise is noticeable (which is where you are in a low light, high ISO situation), then 1 stop is critical. ....

That's not surprising since you are well into the red (noisy) part of the graph for almost any camera.

The D610 only reaches 6400 in the normal ISO range, 25600 in the extended range, I don't have a need to push it past 3200 for the subjects I shoot. I hardly see any noise at all at 1600 and none at ISO 400 unless I underexpose a lot.

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Dec 15, 2018 15:13:54   #
PierreD
 
jonjacobik wrote:
While taking photos under ideal conditions is always the best way, sometimes you gotta stretch the light, use a high ISO to get the shot. I've tried a bunch of software to eliminate noise, but wondering if you know a better one.
Light Room - just not much help
Photoshop - A lot of features but the trade sharpness is servere
Topaz - Not bad if you get their pro add-in but still a trade off.
Photolemur - some, but I never the overall look
Luminar - better than Photoshop but difficult
Corel PSP - Newest version is pretty good

Seems like in this ai age, someone would have better.

What do like?
While taking photos under ideal conditions is alwa... (show quote)



DxO PhotoLab Prime is top notch and by many accounts superior to most other programs. The fact is that it does an amazing job.

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Dec 15, 2018 15:33:38   #
portcragin
 
camerapapi wrote:
Topaz Dinoise works for me.


I found when buying a new camera body that noise is one of the key issues I look for. I have found the Nikon D series cameras have continually improve as new versions are introduced. Presently I shoot with a D7100 and regularly shoot up to ISO 1600. I'm sure the newer ones are even better. I dislike using a flash and have found this to be quite acceptable. I shoot in Raw+Jpeg and do my editing in Photoshop, latest online version. I have been using PS for about 20 years.

Good shooting

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Dec 15, 2018 15:59:48   #
tomcat
 
TriX wrote:
I can’t speak for the D610, but I can tell you from LONG experience shooting low light that there is a VERY noticeable difference in noise between ISO 12,800 and 25,600 with my 5D3. Now you may not see much difference between ISO 400 and 800 on most cameras, but when you get right to the edge where the noise is noticeable (which is where you are in a low light, high ISO situation), then 1 stop is critical.

Real world example: I attend a yearly Christmas party in a large house that attracts some of the better bluegrass musicians in NC. Last year I shot my 5D3 with an 85 f1.8, typically close to wide open, at the slowest SS I could get away with and ISOs between 8,000 and 12,800. The noise was barely noticeable. This year as I prepare for the party, I’d like to take my Fuji (much lighter, less obtrusive), but I know from experience that anything beyond ISO 6,400 is unusable and 3,200 is better - there is a “hard stop” for me at 6400, and going up 1 more stop isn’t an option, so VERY important. Now maybe next year, I’ll have saved up enough for that Fuji 56mm f1.2 (for $800) but tomorrow, I’ll drag out that big heavy Canon because it will do the job. And that is how 1 stop makes a big difference (about $800 in this case).
I can’t speak for the D610, but I can tell you fro... (show quote)




Same here dude. There are many times that I would like to take my D750 with me and a light lens. But I know that I will need the beast and its light gathering sensor, so I charge up the battery and haul it with me in a rolling bag. Along with the 1.8 lenses, it's a lot to tuck under my arm and just jog into a shoot. This past 4 months, I have used it more than I ever have with the high school gym shots because of the low lighting and the need for ISO of 12,500. So if there are any more doubters, there are two guys telling you here that 1 stop does make a huge difference.

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Dec 15, 2018 16:03:13   #
tomcat
 
selmslie wrote:
Which new Sonys? The D600 is from 2012, the A7 II from 2014 and the A7 III from 2018.

Even the 8 year old D600 still holds its own against both Sony 24 MP. Not bad at all.


Try pushing that D600 to ISO 25,600 and compare against a Sony A9 at that ISO....

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Dec 15, 2018 16:20:25   #
selmslie (a regular here)
 
tomcat wrote:
Try pushing that D600 to ISO 25,600 and compare against a Sony A9 at that ISO....

It was not designed to be pushed beyond 6400. The extra 2 stops are there for exceptional situations. Otherwise they would be part of the normal sequence of ISO settings.

If I wanted better low light performance I would have picked a lower resolution than either my D610 or A7 II.

PS: My Df compares well with the A9 between ISO 400 and 512000.


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Dec 15, 2018 16:21:29   #
lamiaceae (a regular here)
 
jonjacobik wrote:
While taking photos under ideal conditions is always the best way, sometimes you gotta stretch the light, use a high ISO to get the shot. I've tried a bunch of software to eliminate noise, but wondering if you know a better one.
Light Room - just not much help
Photoshop - A lot of features but the trade sharpness is servere
Topaz - Not bad if you get their pro add-in but still a trade off.
Photolemur - some, but I never the overall look
Luminar - better than Photoshop but difficult
Corel PSP - Newest version is pretty good

Seems like in this ai age, someone would have better.

What do like?
While taking photos under ideal conditions is alwa... (show quote)


I would mitigate via hardware; f/1.4 Lens, FF sensor body with large pixels (16 to 24 MP FF).

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Dec 15, 2018 16:23:15   #
jonjacobik
 
First shows the original framed shot of a Morganser at F 6.3 1/3200 ISO 5600 @600mm Auto ISO on

Exposure isn't bad, but ISO this high there is no room to say print it at 19x13. The lovely red head just falls to pieces when you expand her. Noise is throughout the photo.

I have eliminated the noise making it good enough for Facebook, but it's just not going in a competition.


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