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New Mirrorless Direction from Nikon and Conon
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Jul 28, 2018 15:59:25   #
O2Ra
 
I didn’t read all this way too long . BUT the Nikon ff is not going to just have a rear screen .That is just being used on consumer products. Nikon is also developing professional lenses to go with these professional ff mirrorless cameras.

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Jul 28, 2018 16:11:40   #
chrisg-optical
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
Yes Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus are making some great cameras now too, don't overlook them, as well as Sony. Cheers


I know them pretty well and have handled all of them in stores/demos. They are all nice to handle - especially Olympus.

*Fuji - APS-C - love the classic look and handling with top mounted dials. Have not looked at MF offerings since I am not in that market.
*Panasonic - compatibility with M43 lenses is a plus, with unique features.
*Olympus - like their M43 design and offerings over Panasonic - classic OM look is great. Like the PEN models too - can't beat them for travel photography!
Sony - the king of FF mirrorless currently - also in the APSC arena. They need a better selection of lenses! A7 R II and A7 III love best.

However, in all of the above cases, it appears as though I am looking at the TV monitor up close in the EVF(lag issue seems to be improved in the newer models). I still like the OVF for image clarity...if there is one area that still needs improvement it is this for mirrorless (and maybe power consumption). Let's see what Nikon offers in their EVF design....

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Jul 28, 2018 16:14:35   #
craggycrossers
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
That cartoon brings back memories for me - it was used by a former sales/marketing company I used to work for promoting their services - very funny!


Many of the contributors to this site need to "loosen up" somewhat ......... and Saturday evening in the UK is a good time for a little well-placed humour (note the correct spelling !).

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Jul 28, 2018 16:16:10   #
gessman (a regular here)
 
dkguill wrote:
I have to ask why Nikon and Canon have to change the lens mount in their mirrorless cameras. I suppose one could make a case for adjusting how the current full-frame lenses are inserted into the camera body vs. a preferable design. I know progress requires change and many don't embrace change eagerly. I guess I'm old enough to be one who resists what might be unnecessary change. I wonder, if the anticipated adapter allows current lenses to be used without negative impact, why the change is ultimately so necessary, unless the objective is just to obsolete current lenses and provide a perceived need to spend money to have an excuse to buy new lenses. I suspect there is a profit opportunity involved...call me suspicious. I admit to not being all that concerned since my experience with mirrorless cameras hasn't been very compelling in the first place. My Sony NEX7 seldom, if ever, gets pressed into service these days. I know I'm talking about an early mirrorless model, but my motivation to change is seriously lagging. Instead, I find my Canon 5D Mk IV, 7D Mk II, and 5Ds very satisfying. I don't expect that the promise of new mirrorless models from Canon or Nikon will motivate me to dump a wad of money in the anticipation of greatly improved IQ. There still is a definite difference between need and want and I don't think I'm going to want to pay for marginal change...if that's what we are ultimately offered. Better the devil I know than the devil I don't know...at least for the foreseeable future.
I have to ask why Nikon and Canon have to change t... (show quote)


While this might not dovetail with everything you said, it appeared to me from the outset of this conversation that the original poster wasn't aware of what was available from Canon already and comments were based on that lack of knowledge. Canon's "leap" will be small indeed and I suspect "mighty." I have an original EOS-M and also have a Sony a6000 and a6500 and while the focus speed and fps aren't equal to the two Sony ASP-c cameras, to me, the IQ of the EOS-M is better than either of the Sony cameras I have. I expect Canon to kick butt.

I would just point out that a huge part of the profit picture of Canon with the FD to EF mount was in new lens sales and I fully expect that a huge part of their profit picture going forward will be in the new mirrorless native lens sales once again even though with the adapter all EF lens will be fully backward compatible, there will likely be an urge toward the new lens just for convenience and size/weight as our population ages and we make room for all the ensuing generations of "girlie-men" photographers who will be getting into the photography game in the coming years, thereby making those still hefting an old dslr and especially on up into large format cameras feel mighty studly as some apparently do now.

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Jul 28, 2018 16:17:49   #
gessman (a regular here)
 
craggycrossers wrote:
Many of the contributors to this site need to "loosen up" somewhat ......... and Saturday evening in the UK is a good time for a little well-placed humour (note the correct spelling !).


Naw... who would you be talking about then, sir?

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Jul 28, 2018 16:18:35   #
gwilliams6
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
I know them pretty well and have handled all of them in stores/demos. They are all nice to handle - especially Olympus.

*Fuji - APS-C - love the classic look and handling with top mounted dials. Have not looked at MF offerings since I am not in that market.
*Panasonic - compatibility with M43 lenses is a plus, with unique features.
*Olympus - like their M43 design and offerings over Panasonic - classic OM look is great. Like the PEN models too - can't beat them for travel photography!
Sony - the king of FF mirrorless currently - also in the APSC arena. They need a better selection of lenses! A7 R II and A7 III love best.

However, in all of the above cases, it appears as though I am looking at the TV monitor up close in the EVF(lag issue seems to be improved in the newer models). I still like the OVF for image clarity...if there is one area that still needs improvement it is this for mirrorless (and maybe power consumption). Let's see what Nikon offers in their EVF design....
I know them pretty well and have handled all of th... (show quote)


The top Sony cameras EVF are like looking at an OVF , the same 3.6 million dot resolution as the best OVF on the DSLR market in the Nikon D850. Sony has developed the next generation of EVF and it is even better resolution and twice the refresh rate. Look for that in Sony's next top camera the A7SIII. Being able to see your actual exposure, color balance and histogram BEFORE you take your shot , and not having to "chimp" to see my results after the shot, were game-changers for me in my switch from top Canon and Nikon DSLRs to Sony fullframe mirrorless. Expect Nikon and Canon to have great EVFs in their fullframe mirrorless too. Cheers

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Jul 28, 2018 16:37:37   #
ggenova64 (a regular here)
 
Do you have money invested in Canon glass?

My question to either Manufacturers, Nikon or Canon, will the adapters work on your older lenses?

Hedgehoggers, stick to the Camera Manufacture you have most invested in lenses or just start new and sell your old gear right here on this site!

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Jul 28, 2018 16:38:27   #
dkguill
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
Because no mirror box means the body is thinner and the lens is much closer to the sensor, so existing F mount lenses (in Nikon's case) would not focus properly without an adapter to increase the distance the same as in current DSLRs. They could have designed a mirrorless body with an F mount but they would have had to make the body the same thickness (lens mount to sensor distance same) as current DSLR design, except without a mirror assembly, but this would prevent the possibility of new improved lenses to match. They made the mount opening wider to accommodate an adapter for F mount lenses - this prevents vignetting due to the extension tube blocking the light path and also opens new possibilities for better light transmission to the sensor - probably the reason for the current theme on their site.

The wider opening might also enable future medium format designs...does anyone think Nikon would venture there?

I wonder if the adapter will enable AF in older "D" lenses with the screw drive?
Because no mirror box means the body is thinner an... (show quote)


Thanks for your explanation. I suspect most of my concern is a result of not wanting to change at this late stage. Fortunately, I will probably not be around by the time I perceive a compelling argument to make the change. I do appreciate your effort.

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Jul 28, 2018 16:47:54   #
dkguill
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
Nikon and Canon know that new lenses specifically designed for the reduced flange distance , better autofocus systems and with lighter weight will be HUGE selling points for their fullframe mirrorless to compete against Sony and other top mirrorless systems that offer more modern designed ,lighter weight and/or smaller sized, and quicker focusing wide to telephoto mirrorless lens systems. Especially Nikon needs to update their lens designs to be fully electronic focus and electronic aperture control, which they are all not completely now.

You have not owned or shot with the top-quality, top performing fullframe mirrorless cameras from Sony. That would be a revelation. Nikon and Canon know they are losing both amateur and professional customers ,new and old ,whom are choosing or switching to these leading-tech fullframe mirrorless from Sony and even really excellent APS-C mirrorless from Sony and other makers. They have to compete or forever see their market share shrink even further. That is compelling reason alone for their going full bore with cameras and lens designed to take best advantage of their new fullframe mirrorless tech. Both Canon and Nikons older lenses, even with their branded converters ,wont work as well on these new cameras as lenses designed for these systems.
Nikon and Canon know that new lenses specifically ... (show quote)


Thank you for your logical points and for taking the time to make them. I suspect, for me at 75 years old, this all will turn out to be a rather academic discussion in the end. I expect my DSLRs to serve my purposes until I no longer have any.

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Jul 28, 2018 16:54:57   #
ecurb1105
 
speters wrote:
I will/would never invest in anything other than DSLR's, but to each its own. Whatever you're comfortable with, go for it, but I don't expect either full frame mirrorless from the two to be very "affordable". I expect them to hover around the 4 grand number, or higher!


Price Leica, Hasselblad or Sinar digitals and Canon, Nikon and Sony look affordable.

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Jul 28, 2018 16:56:31   #
hawleyrw
 
Point taken. Thanks. A lot of dedicated film buffs probably went the same way when digital came out - refusing to go with the “new“ technology. In my lifetime I probably won’t go to mirror less, just because I am so used to regular digital DSLR.

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Jul 28, 2018 17:55:20   #
craggycrossers
 
gessman wrote:
Naw... who would you be talking about then, sir?


Well, I've been a member since 2012, and you a smidgeon longer than me ....... so if you've not been able to recognise any throughout your own UHH journey, then make a "gu*ss".

Sorry ...... not biting.

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Jul 28, 2018 18:01:00   #
burkphoto (a regular here)
 
hawleyrw wrote:
Point taken. Thanks. A lot of dedicated film buffs probably went the same way when digital came out - refusing to go with the “new“ technology. In my lifetime I probably won’t go to mirror less, just because I am so used to regular digital DSLR.


This is a good point!

I was working in the school portrait industry as a lab manager and training content developer during the period I call the digital revolution (1996 to 2010). When we went from film capture to digital capture of portrait images, MANY long-time film photographers gave up the business. They could not handle change. Whether intimidated by computers, or unable to assimilate detailed technical procedures, they retired, sought other lines of work, or, in a couple of cases I know of, went certifiably insane. Our workforce suddenly got younger, smarter, more versatile, and smaller.

The same thing happened in our lab. We had over 100 people who had been there for 20, 30, or even 40+ years. Only a handful of them took our rather blatant hint that they needed to shape up their skills or ship out. We offered free computer training at the local community college. We offered free typing classes. We offered training classes in the lab. But in the end, most of them did not qualify for the new roles we had in digital imaging.

Of course, that was just as well, because the new processes were far more efficient than the old. Then too, with the advent of the world wide web, photo sharing sites, digital cameras in the hands of the "Debbie Digital" moms, the iPhone and Android smartphone revolution, and the recession of the late 2000s, our market went to hell in a hand basket. We closed three of our four labs. Massive consolidation occurred, as Lifetouch bought up as many school portrait companies as it could consume. They bought our division from Herff Jones in 2011. But recently, Lifetouch was consumed by Shutterfly. Like waves washing sand castles off of the beach...

I get the idea that people in their 60s to 90s don't want to change. Heck, film's still around! Use that if you want to. Or use your dSLR until it dies. Used ones will be cheap in a few years, even if they quit making new ones.

Mirrorless offers dozens of advantages over dSLRs, but dSLRs have some over mirrorless, still. For many, the biggest is that they're paid for!

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Jul 28, 2018 18:04:42   #
gessman (a regular here)
 
craggycrossers wrote:
Well, I've been a member since 2012, and you a smidgeon longer than me ....... so if you've not been able to recognise any throughout your own UHH journey, then make a "gu*ss".

Sorry ...... not biting.


Oh yow, I'm right there with you. Just thought I'd draw you out some to see just how "craggy" you wanted to be today.

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Jul 28, 2018 19:57:30   #
Architect1776 (a regular here)
 
burkphoto wrote:
Exactly my point. At the time, I was using Nikon F3s and a Canon A1. Did it bother me that Canon switched mounts? Hell, no! After reading all the reviews and talking to folks who bought into the new system, I understood why Canon made the leap of faith. It took them to #1.

I still have F3 and an FTn and six lenses. I also have the A1 and a couple of lenses. They're in my glass camera display case... Memories...

Canon was very smart when they developed the EOS system and EF mount. Most of their EF lenses work with adapters, not just on their M series, but also on Sony mirrorless and Micro 4/3 cameras! Nikon's lenses are mostly manual when adapted to other brands (Oh, I think there's finally one adapter for Nikon to Micro 4/3 that retains most automatic functions, but it didn't perform well in the CameraStore.tv review I saw).
Exactly my point. At the time, I was using Nikon F... (show quote)



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