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Defining correct exposure
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Jun 12, 2018 15:21:33   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
selmslie wrote:
Almost nobody uses the Zone System the way it was originally defined for sheet film. It is a stretch to attempt to apply the original Zone System to roll film or to color or digital imaging.

However, as a common frame of reference a particular part of the Zone System is very useful. We can refer to the scale (0, I, II ... VIII, IX, X) used to define the tones in an image or print with Zone 0 representing maximum black, Zone X as maximum white and Zone V as being right in the middle.

That does not mean we are actually "using" the Zone System, just a particular part of it that is actually common to all images and prints - even to painting, tapestry and other forms of two-dimensional art.

Anyone who has worked with film and sensitometry is following the work of Hurter and Driffield whether they use the same methods or tools that were used originally to plot film curves.

Even the statement attributed to Newton (1643-1727), "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" is a good example since the sentiment can actually be traced back to the twelfth century and probably goes back much further.
Almost nobody uses the Zone System the way it was ... (show quote)


I use the zone system all the time - but in reverse - I don't concentrate on retaining shadow detail, but I do work on keeping highlight detail. Same zone system, different focus.

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Jun 12, 2018 15:23:35   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
.... From his words I am sure that he dismissed the idea of bracketing once he decided to use the correct exposure for the moon to determine the exposure for the shot - which he
pretty much stated.

He actually wanted a second exposure but the light was changing - the sun was setting too fast.

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Jun 12, 2018 15:28:48   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
I use the zone system all the time - but in reverse - I don't concentrate on retaining shadow detail, but I do work on keeping highlight detail. Same zone system, different focus.

As I explain in Film vs Digital Characteristic Curves, digital and film are similar but the hard limit for digital is where the highlights blow out and for negative film it's where the image reaches film base plus fog. Positive film (slides) have some of the characteristics of both.

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Jun 12, 2018 15:30:22   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
selmslie wrote:
If you read what Adams wrote about how he determined the exposure you will see that he knew very well how well the foreground and everything else was going to record.

The way he developed the negative was part of his plan to control the overall contrast. That's what the Zone System is all about - to mate the exposure with the appropriate development.

What is just as interesting is how he changed the appearance of the final print over several decades. His later prints ended up darker and with more contrast while still using the same developed negative.
If you read what Adams wrote about how he determin... (show quote)


He even treated his only negative to a post post development treatment where he used selenium toner to enhance the contrast - quite a risk for the only capture of that scene. But he did this with deliberation and knowing full well what the outcome would be. By the time he was around 35-40 the guesswork was out of his workflow, and his results were almost always fully predictable. He lamented not making a second negative, not the fact he did not bracket the shot.

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Jun 12, 2018 15:42:43   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
He even treated his only negative to a post post development treatment where he used selenium toner to enhance the contrast - quite a risk for the only capture of that scene. But he did this with deliberation and knowing full well what the outcome would be. By the time he was around 35-40 the guesswork was out of his workflow, and his results were almost always fully predictable. He lamented not making a second negative, not the fact he did not bracket the shot.

As pappleg pointed out in another thread, Adams wanted a second image (to bracket) but was unable to get it done in time. This is the narrative I recall from Adam's writing.

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Jun 12, 2018 15:50:04   #
bpulv Loc: Buena Park, CA
 
selmslie wrote:
Almost nobody uses the Zone System the way it was originally defined for sheet film. It is a stretch to attempt to apply the original Zone System to roll film or to color or digital imaging.

However, as a common frame of reference a particular part of the Zone System is very useful. We can refer to the scale (0, I, II ... VIII, IX, X) used to define the tones in an image or print with Zone 0 representing maximum black, Zone X as maximum white and Zone V as being right in the middle.

That does not mean we are actually "using" the Zone System, just a particular part of it that is actually common to all images and prints - even to painting, tapestry and other forms of two-dimensional art.

Anyone who has worked with film and sensitometry is following the work of Hurter and Driffield whether they use the same methods or tools that were used originally to plot film curves.

Even the statement attributed to Newton (1643-1727), "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" is a good example since the sentiment can actually be traced back to the twelfth century and probably goes back much further.
Almost nobody uses the Zone System the way it was ... (show quote)


This if very interesting. Since I do not use the Zone System, I was not aware that it was no longer used strictly as Adams specified.

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Jun 12, 2018 16:14:16   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
bpulv wrote:
This if very interesting. Since I do not use the Zone System, I was not aware that it was no longer used strictly as Adams specified.

There have probably been a zillion variations on the concept. It even evolved during Adams's lifetime but it is pretty well defined in his writings.

You will often see people borrowing some of the terminology and concepts.

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Jun 12, 2018 16:54:38   #
G Brown Loc: Sunny Bognor Regis West Sussex UK
 
canadaboy wrote:
Discounting special effects such as high or low key etc, if asked how I might define correct exposure I could say something like "were it a scene that includes a mid Grey object, correct exposure would be settings that make the object appear as a similar tone in the completed image".

How would you define it?


Exposure is defined by INTENT. How do you want it to look?
'Correct' doesn't come into it. Think about the difference in a product shot and a portrait shot. You manipulate both to achieve 'different looks'. We deliberately go out at dawn and dusk for landscapes but rarely for weddings (usually hapenstance when included).

By trying to define you are in danger of creating rules.....Life needs less rules.

Have fun

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Jun 12, 2018 18:14:45   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
selmslie wrote:
As pappleg pointed out in another thread, Adams wanted a second image (to bracket) but was unable to get it done in time. This is the narrative I recall from Adam's writing.


This is the narrative in his own words:

"I was at a loss with the subject luminance values, and I confess I was thinking about bracketing several exposures, when I suddenly realized that I knew the luminance of the moon—250 c/ft2. Using the Exposure Formula, I placed this luminance on Zone VII; 60 c/ft2 therefore fell on Zone V, and the exposure with the filter factor o 3x was about 1 second at f/32 with ASA 64 film. I had no idea what the value of the foreground was, but I hoped it barely fell within the exposure scale. Not wanting to take chances, I indicated a water-bath development for the negative."

The operative phrase is "suddenly I realized that I knew the luminance of the moon. . . " which implies he abandoned his Plan A to use the bracketing he was considering, and decided on Plan B, to use the luminance to establish the exposure he wanted.

His thought about a second exposure had nothing to do with bracketing either - he just wanted a duplicate of the first. Again, in his own words:

"Realizing as I released the shutter that I had an unusual photograph which deserved a duplicate negative, I swiftly reversed the film holder, but as I pulled the darkslide the sunlight passed from the white crosses; I was a few seconds too late!”

http://anseladams.com/ansel-adams-anecdotes/

So although I generally agree with you, this time I can't on either statement.

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Jun 12, 2018 18:16:18   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
G Brown wrote:
Exposure is defined by INTENT. How do you want it to look?
'Correct' doesn't come into it. Think about the difference in a product shot and a portrait shot. You manipulate both to achieve 'different looks'. We deliberately go out at dawn and dusk for landscapes but rarely for weddings (usually hapenstance when included).

By trying to define you are in danger of creating rules.....Life needs less rules.

Have fun


I agree with you. But I will go a bit further. It's correct if it satisfies your intent. That is always the case. You can't argue with that definition.

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Jun 12, 2018 19:20:18   #
BebuLamar
 
Gene51 wrote:
This is the narrative in his own words:

"I was at a loss with the subject luminance values, and I confess I was thinking about bracketing several exposures, when I suddenly realized that I knew the luminance of the moon—250 c/ft2. Using the Exposure Formula, I placed this luminance on Zone VII; 60 c/ft2 therefore fell on Zone V, and the exposure with the filter factor o 3x was about 1 second at f/32 with ASA 64 film. I had no idea what the value of the foreground was, but I hoped it barely fell within the exposure scale. Not wanting to take chances, I indicated a water-bath development for the negative."

The operative phrase is "suddenly I realized that I knew the luminance of the moon. . . " which implies he abandoned his Plan A to use the bracketing he was considering, and decided on Plan B, to use the luminance to establish the exposure he wanted.

His thought about a second exposure had nothing to do with bracketing either - he just wanted a duplicate of the first. Again, in his own words:

"Realizing as I released the shutter that I had an unusual photograph which deserved a duplicate negative, I swiftly reversed the film holder, but as I pulled the darkslide the sunlight passed from the white crosses; I was a few seconds too late!”

http://anseladams.com/ansel-adams-anecdotes/

So although I generally agree with you, this time I can't on either statement.
This is the narrative in his own words: br br i ... (show quote)


"The white crosses were on the edge of sunlight and reasonably "safe"; the shaded foreground was of very low value. Had I known how low it was I would have given at least 50 percent more exposure (a half zone). I could then have controlled the value of the moon in development, and the foreground would have a slight - but rewarding - increase of density"

Quoted from the book "Examples The making of 40 photographs" by AA.

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Jun 12, 2018 19:40:24   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
BebuLamar wrote:
"The white crosses were on the edge of sunlight and reasonably "safe"; the shaded foreground was of very low value. Had I known how low it was I would have given at least 50 percent more exposure (a half zone). I could then have controlled the value of the moon in development, and the foreground would have a slight - but rewarding - increase of density"

Quoted from the book "Examples The making of 40 photographs" by AA.


And this is an indication that he wanted to bracketed the exposure? It was an afterthought that came to him once the negative was developed and dried.

But you are right - the thought certainly did cross his mind.

Here it is in full context:

https://books.google.com/books?id=I5iyf8kmlHQC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=The+white+crosses+were+on+the+edge+of+sunlight+and+reasonably+%22safe%22;+the+shaded+foreground+was+of+very+low+value.+Had+I+known+how+low+it+was+I+would+have+given+at+least+50+percent+more+exposure+(a+half+zone).+I+could+then+have+controlled+the+value+of+the+moon+in+development,+and+the+foreground+would+have+a+slight+-+but+rewarding+-+increase+of+density&source=bl&ots=60-55jcHgn&sig=CbVVdzoFI6HKW-XXcYsbwPRlNDM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_nsOco8_bAhUo4oMKHfQHDhIQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Jun 12, 2018 19:42:51   #
BebuLamar
 


I meant the exposure wasn't exactly what he wanted. If he knew more (that is if he got a good meter) he would expose it differently.

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Jun 12, 2018 20:55:30   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
BebuLamar wrote:
I meant the exposure wasn't exactly what he wanted. If he knew more (that is if he got a good meter) he would expose it differently.

Since the final result was useable it may be just as well he could not find his meter. It would have slowed him down and he might have missed the shot.

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Jun 13, 2018 00:48:47   #
canadaboy
 
selmslie wrote:
Since the final result was useable it may be just as well he could not find his meter. It would have slowed him down and he might have missed the shot.


A good argument for using program mode lol

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