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Jul 9, 2012 00:29:23   #
gessman
 
...and I'd like to make a suggestion or two that might help some people out. See what you think about it, consider it, and then proceed as you see fit by all means.

When someone starts a thread and asks a specific question about two pieces of equipment they are considering, how many of you think it would be useful and respectful if comments were limited strictly to the question the original poster (OP) asks and those who know they cannot accurately and specifically answer the question, remain silent and not participate in the answer, leaving it up to those who can answer the questions.

If, for instance, an OP asks if a Canon L lens without IS would be as good as the same lens with IS. That person has asked a serious, worthwhile, and complex question and has demonstrated no interest in any other alternatives. Wouldn't it be respectful to the OP and the idea of getting her/him the answer to the question if those who have no experience with the subject and cannot answer or who use other equipment didn't spring forth saying things like, "I don't know nothing about either of those lens but I use brand X and am really satisfied with it" and then go on recommending other lens that the OP has demonstrated no interest in such as Sigma or Tamron, often even becoming argumentative with those who can answer the question and in so doing, completely disrespects the OP and his question?

Along those same lines, it would appear to detract from the OP's ability to get a fair and reasonable answer to their question when people respond by revealing the fact that their personal financial situation is not such that they would 'ever spend that much' because they cannot afford it and it's just not worth it to them and they are happy with what they have and think it's stupid to pay that much for either one of those lens.

In essence, those people are throwing themselves under the bus and then the people who are trying to reply become the bus driver and are either forced to pull up and not answer the question or run over those people. These people have put themselves and their financial misfortune in the way of the OP getting at the truth and their financial misfortune is not part of the equation and should never have entered the discussion.

I don't think anyone here who tries to share their experience is interested in running over those who are not financially able to do things they might like to do and I for one, would choose to not be put in that position. I have, however, made a conscious choice for the future - if people throw themselves under a bus I'm driving, from now on, I'm not pulling up. I'm running over them. I'm going to answer the OP if I can, as truthfully and accurately as I can without regard to anyone else's financial misfortune. Maybe after a few of those folks who like to limit and control the conversation by sharing their misfortune openly get run over, perhaps they'll quit throwing themselves under the bus. Fair warning! This is not a place for you to come and interject your misfortune onto others who do not share your circumstances and try to limit their choices with your misery.

I cannot think of a single person I've encountered on uhh who would not have a degree of empathy for anyone else but if relating your misfortune impedes the advancement of another's ambitions, you need to avoid sharing your misfortune. Otherwise, you're looking for sympathy and trying to control the choices and actions of others because of your misfortune. It does not matter what your purpose is if the net affect has a negative impact on another person's ability to get the information they're looking for. If you can only afford a Tamron or a Nikon without VR and you're happy with it, I don't really need to know about that. Please avoid impacting the forum with that kind of information.

And yes, by all means, for those of you to whom I'm directing this, and you know who you are, it is recognized that it's your right to say whatever you want to and I'm neither managing the forum nor am I the boss of you but that doesn't make it a smart thing to do. You may want some information some time and you may find that several pages of irrelevant comments are not very desirable. Further, all the would be witty little one-liner responses from you experts that say nothing of value could also be kept to a minimum, like completely. It would be more useful for you to not participate than to take up time and space and share nothing of value.

Another thing that might be good since this is a photography forum is for those who are giving advice and answering questions to include some images to demonstrate the point they're trying to make when possible and to also indicate that the person offering the advice can show that they are more than a theoretical expert. Many of the recent arrivals who are presenting themselves as persons of knowledge have yet to demonstrate that they can even get a good exposure let alone offer a valid piece of advice. Too many late arrivals are way too argumentative also, and seemingly unwilling to back up their words with deeds, in my humble opinion.

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Jul 9, 2012 00:55:32   #
BHC
 
I understand what you are saying, and I believe your intentions are admirable. Perhaps too many of us (I'm one of the worst offenders) make a remark that is not on subject. Your point is well taken, and I thank you. On the other hand, if I ask whether I should buy a certain Quantaray lens or a comparable Vivitar, I hope a whole bunch of people jump right in the middle of the topic to tell me that there are a whole lot of Pepsi bottles out there that will make better lenses and then offer their unsolicitated, but otherwise useful suggestions. And I hope they don't feel a need to think within the box. Besides, the humor on this site is what keeps bringing me back.

I'll make you a deal? I'll try to be less of a smart-ass, if you'll cut me some slack on my answers

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Jul 9, 2012 04:22:32   #
tainkc
 
I agree with you. I find it disheartening when some one asks a question about their Nikon d5100 and some one jumps in and say something like "you should have bought a Canon" or" I have a d90 and blah, blah, blah" and then the thread begins to go into never, never land. This happens all of the time.

I wonder how many, especially new people out here, have been turned off by this sort of thing and just left this forum?

I also think that the admin should state in the rules for one not to knock another person's choice of equipment and if one does not have a positive feedback to a particular question, don't interject with some nonsense.

We have all seen in the main photography section, the same questions over and over again posted mostly by new people here, on UHH. Nothing wrong with this. Good people will try to answer the question diligently even though they have heard the same question a thousand times. Others will point out the library of topics covered. There are some people like Nikonian72 who not only tells these people where to find the answers, he looks them up for them and gives them the URL.

Just think if things were handled in a more mature fashion, how many more people would come aboard and stay here on UHH. I don't mean that should not be any levity or friendly bantering, but even this could be kept to a minimum.

I have had a photography 101 class that I went to. I also do my homework as best as I can before I present a question. I own several photography books, but I have learned more on this forum than all the before mentioned because I get real answers from real people who try to help in real time. But I have also read where new people have posted that they were leaving because some of the nonsense that goes on here. I hate it when this happens.

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Jul 10, 2012 22:28:50   #
gessman
 
Bill41 wrote:
I understand what you are saying, and I believe your intentions are admirable. Perhaps too many of us (I'm one of the worst offenders) make a remark that is not on subject. Your point is well taken, and I thank you. On the other hand, if I ask whether I should buy a certain Quantaray lens or a comparable Vivitar, I hope a whole bunch of people jump right in the middle of the topic to tell me that there are a whole lot of Pepsi bottles out there that will make better lenses and then offer their unsolicitated, but otherwise useful suggestions. And I hope they don't feel a need to think within the box. Besides, the humor on this site is what keeps bringing me back.

I'll make you a deal? I'll try to be less of a smart-ass, if you'll cut me some slack on my answers
I understand what you are saying, and I believe yo... (show quote)


I hope it is apparent that I'm well-intentioned Bill and I appreciate your response. If that 'Quantaray v. Vivitar scenario were to occur, I would hope for the same thing you outlined as long as those who responded were not offensive, resorting to insulting comments like calling me stupid for considering such idiocy in the first place when I was merely motivated by a lack of funds to get the best I could and presuming that there was a known winner. You hit on part of the importance of the point I was trying to make. To recommend 'better quality' to someone who might not know there is better quality is one matter but to bust in here negotiating for the lowest common denominator is inappropriate, that is to say, if I ask about buying a Nikon lens and you come in saying 'save your money. I have a Sigma lens and am real happy with it,' when that person may not have done any homework on what is available but merely bought a Tamron because their daddy had one and he was really happy with his. Statements like that are patently absurd but it is often how some of these comments go - petitioning for the least common denominator. All things considered, image quality, speed of action, etc., it has been repeatedly shown that the major brand lens are superior to after-market lens across the board.

Humor? I'm absolutely for humor that isn't insulting and if, at the same time, the question is answered accurately. As we are all aware, it is not our jobs to monitor others but when lessor experienced people who may shoot with a p&s start advising owners of a D800E, or a 5D3, and I've seen it, it's time to put some sanity back into this. That's what I'm talking about. There's a small handful of people on uhh who are comparatively new to photography who are jumping in and answering every stinkin' thread. There are some questions that are going inadequately answered and I suspect that's often because there are some highly skilled experts here who back off from saying anything to keep from having to contradict those relatively inexperienced people and embarrass them. A few experts don't seem to mind arguing with those less experienced but many are reluctant to do so because it lowers the quality of the experience for everyone when lessor experienced people start talking about things they really don't know about which may force a true expert to move on away from the thread. Often the inexperienced people don't even know enough to know when they've been corrected. It is for certain, that many long term expert members have moved on completely due to this negotiating for all of us to become 'bottom feeders' as we dredge up every possible exception for what is broad and common practice.

And yes, some of the best shots ever have been with p&s, and yes, some of the best photographers ever have and do use p&s but that's not the norm and we are not working toward trying to duplicate the exceptions - we are doing everything within our power, presumably, to give ourselves every possible advantage in the majority of circumstances and using inferior equipment fails miserably to achieve that for most of us.

About the only thing I've noticed in your comments is that it is not always apparent that you have fully read the question and the responses that have preceded yours. You appear to be diligent but that you are often in a desperate rush and don't really have time.

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Jul 10, 2012 22:57:52   #
gessman
 
tainkc wrote:
I agree with you. I find it disheartening when some one asks a question about their Nikon d5100 and some one jumps in and say something like "you should have bought a Canon" or" I have a d90 and blah, blah, blah" and then the thread begins to go into never, never land. This happens all of the time.

I wonder how many, especially new people out here, have been turned off by this sort of thing and just left this forum?

I also think that the admin should state in the rules for one not to knock another person's choice of equipment and if one does not have a positive feedback to a particular question, don't interject with some nonsense.

We have all seen in the main photography section, the same questions over and over again posted mostly by new people here, on UHH. Nothing wrong with this. Good people will try to answer the question diligently even though they have heard the same question a thousand times. Others will point out the library of topics covered. There are some people like Nikonian72 who not only tells these people where to find the answers, he looks them up for them and gives them the URL.

Just think if things were handled in a more mature fashion, how many more people would come aboard and stay here on UHH. I don't mean that should not be any levity or friendly bantering, but even this could be kept to a minimum.

I have had a photography 101 class that I went to. I also do my homework as best as I can before I present a question. I own several photography books, but I have learned more on this forum than all the before mentioned because I get real answers from real people who try to help in real time. But I have also read where new people have posted that they were leaving because some of the nonsense that goes on here. I hate it when this happens.
I agree with you. I find it disheartening when so... (show quote)


Several good knowledgeable, interested, helpful people have left uhh lately due to the aggressive, argumentative attitudes of some later arrivals, many of whom are projecting themselves into a position of prominence undeservedly. There are too many people looking to invoke too many 'favorite sayings,' tired, worn out hogwash that insists the equipment doesn't matter at all, and saying stuff like, 'you must have a good stove,' and invoking Ansel Adams into every thread. I've read some of his stuff and seen his work, much of it. He came and went and left a heck of a legacy but that's over and this is different and none of us can speak for him, or should attempt to, just as we cannot hope to explain what 'The founding fathers' meant who couldn't see 200 years out into the future.

Speaking of 'the founding fathers,' you people who are engaging in the political arguments in 'general chit chat' are doing yourselves no favors. Your argumentativeness is diminishing people's respect for you and causing some to not want to interact with you. When there's two sides, one almost has to be wrong and the people with sympathy for your opponent now disrespects you. Yep, it's an open discussion and you can do and say what you choose, as we all know, but don't be surprised if people begin to increasingly ignore and avoid you. As tainkc says, UHH is a fertile and rich photography resource and it should be kept that way and our behavior should be such that all others will want to interact with everyone else for the advancement of photographic knowledge, not choosing up sides on issues that have nothing to do with photography and creating tension and disrespect between each other.

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Jul 11, 2012 12:34:06   #
TP
 
If people were not identified by the number of messages they have posted things would be a lot better! There are too many UHH users who make pointless remarks just to get their message count up! Oops, one more for me! Ha Ha.

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Jul 11, 2012 12:40:52   #
Mytherwyn
 
I swear by the gods of photography I will do this!


Starting today.

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Jul 11, 2012 17:50:56   #
TP
 
Good on you mate! (One more, ha,ha,ha!)

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Jul 12, 2012 18:01:32   #
gessman
 
TP wrote:
If people were not identified by the number of messages they have posted things would be a lot better! There are too many UHH users who make pointless remarks just to get their message count up! Oops, one more for me! Ha Ha.


I don't understand. Why would anyone want to do that? There's nothing in it for them, no reward, no honor, nothing except gaining attention for being a loudmouth. How many people aspire to that?

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Jul 12, 2012 18:06:01   #
gessman
 
Mytherwyn wrote:
I swear by the gods of photography I will do this!


Starting today.


What are you going to do sheriff, become a nuisance or stop being one? I don't understand.

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Jul 12, 2012 18:06:45   #
gessman
 
TP wrote:
Good on you mate! (One more, ha,ha,ha!)


You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. Your choice.

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