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Zoom lens conversions for fixed-lens digital cameras
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Oct 18, 2017 16:02:27   #
Clapperboard
 
kymarto " it is about sensor size and exposure equivalence"
Please can you tell me just what you mean by "exposure equivalence"?

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Oct 18, 2017 19:30:24   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
rehess wrote:
just adds to the confusion. This is not the book to recommend to neophytes


Your pointis well taken although I still believe Brian Peterson is referring to DOF.

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Oct 18, 2017 19:38:27   #
GoofyNewfie Loc: Kansas City
 
rehess wrote:
In 1969, I used graduation money to purchase my first adjustable camera. Reading instructions packed with the camera, I learned to twist the funky knob immediately below the "ASA" window to match the number on the film box. Then, for each picture, I transferred the "EV" number off the light meter directly below the knob to the outermost ring on the lens barrel. The only remaining step was to use the second ring of the lens barrel to allocate exposure control between shutter speed {label on the dial} and aperture {number in window directly below the ring}. In a matter of minutes, I learned to operate this mechanism, and over the next four years I learned about the practical aspects of "exposure".

Thus, I've never felt a need to purchase Mr.Peterson's book, nor have I even paged through it. The things being reported in this thread are just plain wrong - since I have no idea what the context is, I have no idea what "need" Mr. Peterson thinks he is addressing, but the words being reported here are confusing at best, and IMHO have no place in a book meant to teach neophytes about exposure. Exposure is what I outlined in the first paragraph - determining how much light you have and then adjusting real shutter speed and real aperture to give a pleasing picture.


BTW - the camera below is a fixed lens camera. Ten years, and another {this time a Canon} fixed lens camera later, I purchased my first Pentax SLR. I did compare light meter readings between the three cameras, and found them to agree within one EV.
In 1969, I used graduation money to purchase my fi... (show quote)

Which Yashica is that.
Looks like my first serious camera

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Oct 18, 2017 20:11:03   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
GoofyNewfie wrote:
Which Yashica is that.
Looks like my first serious camera

It is a Minister III.

Cost me $35. Local drug store closeout - apparently they decided people didn’t go to a place like them to purchase anything more complex than an instamatic.

I used it for four years - including “off duty” time for CLA twice. Most of what I learned about exposure came about as I fiddled with its controls.

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Oct 18, 2017 20:27:50   #
BebuLamar
 
rehess wrote:
just adds to the confusion. This is not the book to recommend to neophytes


Well Rehess the book, Understanding Exposure, doesn't address exposure problem. It concentrates on depth of field and motion blur or freeze motion and high ISO noise.

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Oct 18, 2017 20:29:28   #
BebuLamar
 
kymarto wrote:
It’s not about fixed lens, it is about sensor size and exposure equivalence. The basic idea (I guess, because I have not read the passage in question) is that a smaller sensor is noisier than a larger sensor, so you can set a larger sensor to a higher ISO and come up with an image that is equivalent in look (in terms of noise) to that of a smaller sensor at a much lower ISO. The example seems to be of a small sensor 4 EV noisier than a larger sensor. So if the correct exposure is f2.8 at 1/125 at ISO 100 (for instance), you can set the larger sensor to f11 at 1/125 at ISO 1600 and have an image with an equivalent amount of noise (with sensors of similar architecture and the same number of pixels)
It’s not about fixed lens, it is about sensor size... (show quote)


And also the same amount of DOF because the smaller sensor has more DOF if used at the same f/stop.

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Oct 18, 2017 23:43:24   #
GoofyNewfie Loc: Kansas City
 
rehess wrote:
It is a Minister III.

Cost me $35. Local drug store closeout - apparently they decided people didn’t go to a place like them to purchase anything more complex than an instamatic.

I used it for four years - including “off duty” time for CLA twice. Most of what I learned about exposure came about as I fiddled with its controls.

Cool!
Mine was a Minister D.
Would love to have a collection of cameras I used now.
Sold most of them to move up.

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Oct 19, 2017 02:14:47   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
As far as EXPOSURE is concerned... f/2.8 is f/2.8 and f/11 is f/11, regardless of sensor format.

But as far as DEPTH-OF-FIELD is concerned.... smaller sensors give the effect of greater DoF.... indirectly.

In truth, DoF doesn't change with sensor size alone. DoF is directly effected by the aperture size, distance to the subject and lens focal length.

However, when you change sensor size, in order to frame a subject the same way in an image, you'll need to change either focal length or distance... or both.

For example, if you are using a 200mm lens on an APS-C camera (sensor approx. 15x23mm), in order to get the same composition with a full frame camera (sensor approx. 24x36mm) you will either need to move a lot closer with the same 200mm lens or use a longer 300mm focal length lens. In that case the same "f/2.8" with both cameras will gather the same light and make for the same exposure... but it will render much shallower depth of field on the full frame camera.

Even more extreme, cameras such as the Canon SX60mm use a tiny "1/2.3 inch" sensor (approx. 6.2 x 4.6mm) to make an approx. 53mm focal length "act like" 300mm on full frame. This much shorter focal length would render a great deal more depth of field at the same f/2.8.

I'm sure this is what Peterson was referring to... That DoF "changes" (albeit indirectly) with smaller or larger sensors. Shallow DoF effects are difficult or near impossible to achieve with really small sensor cameras... While large sensor cameras can achieve very shallow DoF effects relatively easily.

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Oct 19, 2017 03:45:42   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
amfoto1 wrote:
As far as EXPOSURE is concerned... f/2.8 is f/2.8 and f/11 is f/11, regardless of sensor format.

But as far as DEPTH-OF-FIELD is concerned.... smaller sensors give the effect of greater DoF.... indirectly.

In truth, DoF doesn't change with sensor size alone. DoF is directly effected by the aperture size, distance to the subject and lens focal length.

However, when you change sensor size, in order to frame a subject the same way in an image, you'll need to change either focal length or distance... or both.

For example, if you are using a 200mm lens on an APS-C camera (sensor approx. 15x23mm), in order to get the same composition with a full frame camera (sensor approx. 24x36mm) you will either need to move a lot closer with the same 200mm lens or use a longer 300mm focal length lens. In that case the same "f/2.8" with both cameras will gather the same light and make for the same exposure... but it will render much shallower depth of field on the full frame camera.

Even more extreme, cameras such as the Canon SX60mm use a tiny "1/2.3 inch" sensor (approx. 6.2 x 4.6mm) to make an approx. 53mm focal length "act like" 300mm on full frame. This much shorter focal length would render a great deal more depth of field at the same f/2.8.

I'm sure this is what Peterson was referring to... That DoF "changes" (albeit indirectly) with smaller or larger sensors. Shallow DoF effects are difficult or near impossible to achieve with really small sensor cameras... While large sensor cameras can achieve very shallow DoF effects relatively easily.
As far as EXPOSURE is concerned... f/2.8 is f/2.8 ... (show quote)


I know the OP's question dealt with a small sensor / large DOF, but I can remember the first time opening up my Hasselblad 80mm to wide open f2.8 and wondering where my DOF had gone. Even though it was film back then, it still is larger sensor /smaller DOF.

I still think the main reason that swings, tilts, and lifts were developed for large format was so the large format photographers could find a way of getting more of the image into the film plane's narrow DOF.

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Oct 19, 2017 05:52:34   #
Clapperboard
 
amfoto1 Thank God, at last someone who also understands the physics of the system! There is so much 'pseudo science' discussed regarding crop sensors it really annoys. I have started to wish manufacturers had never spoken of crop factors. Some of the confusion has been created by self appointed 'experts' making videos for Youtube discussing things they don't understand at all. They are accepted by some as the experts they claim to be and the truth disappears. Thank You, Thank You, Thank YOU for an accurate and knowledgeable appraisal of the setup.

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