Just came back from the "Main Photography Discussion" boards...wow!
Sep 10, 2017 12:28:28 #
"Main Photography Discussion
This is where we talk about anything related to photography.
Topics: 71625
Posts: 1706283
Subscribed users: 77423"
They left something out of the description- should read: This is the place where the TROLLS hang out!
Every now and again I come across an interesting question, on that board, or I somehow get inspired to write something there. My goodness, what an unmitigated waste of time and effort! The "troll ratio" up there must be enormous. OK most folks are nice but the degree of sarcasm, infighting and pure snark is surely disproportionate.
Whats worse, is the place is swarming with "wedding haters" and every time a post arises about wedding photography, the most inane, foolish and nasty remarks tend to surface, usually posted by folks who don't know the first thing about weddings work or who have failed miserably at it. OK- I like to cuss too- but no online! What a bunch of toilet mouths! I can't have their stuff on my screen when my grandchildren are in the house.
I try to be the "good will ambassador" from the wedding section and attempt to encourage interested folks to visit with us and participate. NADA! On second thought- in retrospect, better they should stay where they are.
Well- I'm gonna continue to hide out here- only got one nasty response in the last few years.
Rant over...I feel better now!
This is where we talk about anything related to photography.
Topics: 71625
Posts: 1706283
Subscribed users: 77423"
They left something out of the description- should read: This is the place where the TROLLS hang out!
Every now and again I come across an interesting question, on that board, or I somehow get inspired to write something there. My goodness, what an unmitigated waste of time and effort! The "troll ratio" up there must be enormous. OK most folks are nice but the degree of sarcasm, infighting and pure snark is surely disproportionate.
Whats worse, is the place is swarming with "wedding haters" and every time a post arises about wedding photography, the most inane, foolish and nasty remarks tend to surface, usually posted by folks who don't know the first thing about weddings work or who have failed miserably at it. OK- I like to cuss too- but no online! What a bunch of toilet mouths! I can't have their stuff on my screen when my grandchildren are in the house.
I try to be the "good will ambassador" from the wedding section and attempt to encourage interested folks to visit with us and participate. NADA! On second thought- in retrospect, better they should stay where they are.
Well- I'm gonna continue to hide out here- only got one nasty response in the last few years.
Rant over...I feel better now!
Sep 11, 2017 14:23:51 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
"Main Photography Discussion br This is where... (show quote)
Hello. Visiting from the main photography section... in case you were unawares.. there's been some some running gags and recurring inside jokes this past month .the punchline involves a "negative response to EVERY topic that involves a wedding". In most cases it's not sincere and the regulars know this.
This has resulted in response to 2 particular wedding posts which were taken as being "insane" / "professional suicide by the majority "and brought out the passionate views of many members including myself.
It isn't filled with wedding haters either It's filled with highly skilled, passionate photographers who hate hacks that attempt to shoot weddings for free and those that further dislike the other hacks that don't know how to shoot weddings or deal with people but want advice on gear and techniques so they can make money ruining a bride's most important day.
Quite frankly the site is to blame.
The all categories option is featured at the bottom of the page so the majority of users don't even know that wonderful categories like yours even exist
I didn't until just recently.
Sep 11, 2017 21:28:03 #
Hi G!
Yes, I read those posts- both spoke of "wedding disasters" in the making. One of them was the guy who is "rusty" at wedding photography but gives lessons to his "assistants/students" who are totally inexperienced and inapt as well. Oh- he does the wedding at no charge and gets the assistants to pay him for the pleasure- how strange is that?. I remarked, in that thread, that his plan was a "dog's breakfast" in terms of logistics alone and the entire plan is ill advised. Then he preceided to do the wedding and posted again with a blow-by-blow commentary about his equipment failures, lenses that were incompatible with his camera bodies and the incompetence of one of his "second shooters". That's not a joke because it just ain't funny! Lord have mercy on that bride! Well- she did go for the deal! He also remarked that the job was difficult. Many wedding photographers create self inflicted difficulties for themselves- when folks have little or no investment in their photographer they tend not to cooperate as much, oftentimes, not at all!
Here's the sad part- there is absolutely nothing you, I or anyone else can do about the hacks- they will not be discouraged. I have been intimately involved in full time professional wedding photography, portraiture and commercial photography for over fifty years and the HACKS have always been there and they ain't going away anytime soon! With the advent of more automated photographic systems, in fact, their numbers have increased exponentially and they are more emboldened than ever before.
As a conscientious professional, all I can do is try to educate all my potential clients as to the advantages of contracting an experienced professional. I go to the extent of telling all the couples that come to my studio inquiring about my wedding services, that even if they don't hire me, to seek out another competent pro who is more in keeping with their requirements or price expectations. I also try to encourage serious amateur photographers who are aspiring to professionalism in wedding photography, to take the courses, hit the books, do the research and serve a significant apprenticeship as an assistant. Going out of a few weddings, even with a top pro, just won't do it. There is lots of hard work and a gradual transition even for the most talented trainee.
Teasing, razzing or even warning or admonishing the hacks, especially online, just makes things worse- they take it as a challenge- it's kind of a reverse encouragement whereby you end up egging them on. Then everyone in the thread chimes with "good advice" about the use of a certain flash bracket or perhaps a more safe programmed camera mode and someone always tells the guy or gal to go out, not to worry and have a good time - "after all- it's not rocket science"! . OK, collectively, perhaps some of the technical advice is valid but the nasty fact is, the hack does not know what the hell or she doing. This is all frustrating to watch!
Just like in every business and profession, there are always hacks, charlatans and fast buck artists. I never though of them as competition because they don't affect my business in terms of my "bottom line" but the do affect the entire wedding photography industry in a different way. So many of the hacks exhibit boorish or fumbling behavior at wedding ceremonies and receptions and do poor work to boot! The bad PR rubs off on the ethical and compassionate photographers who are trying to do things properly. I have heard stories form church officials, the clergy and catering professionals. I have heard things from friends, family members and clients, about their experiences with the hacks, that make me cringe! Yeah- and then someone advises that the take a good stiff drink before the job. I always tell my trainees and staff that if the even smell booze on the job, I will murder them in their sleep! They dig my sense of humor but they get my drift!
Perhaps my term "wedding haters" is a bit harsh but let me tell you, I have heard some pretty disparaging and snarky remarks about professional photographers in general- right here on the Hog! There is a detectable degree of resentment. There are so may folks here who have a propensity for painting the hacks and the real pros with the same brush- could be that some of them simply don't know the difference or they are significantly ill informed. Innocently enough, there are probably some niece well meaning but inexperienced and ill-equipped people who just want to help someone out financially and offer their photographic services, however, they too are ill informed and have no idea what they are undertaking.
To be fair, when it comes to hiring inapt wedding shooters, the hacks are not completely at fault- the consumers have to take some of the blame. Some folks will spend a fortune on all their other wedding services but do not consider their photography as a priority, that is, until the hack messes up- then it becomes a major disappointment and serious complaint. Many of the hacks meet their career Armageddon in a court room having to defend a devastating lawsuit. Unfortunately enough, there is always someone who is willing to do a lesser job for lesser pay and they always find customers who are similarly inclined and seek out "bargains".
All the good guys and gals can do is continue to serve their clients with the utmost respect, service and product, garner a loyal clientele and plenty of referrals and keep on trucken'! It ain't easy work, it's not for the lazy photographer or the faint of heart.
Yes, I read those posts- both spoke of "wedding disasters" in the making. One of them was the guy who is "rusty" at wedding photography but gives lessons to his "assistants/students" who are totally inexperienced and inapt as well. Oh- he does the wedding at no charge and gets the assistants to pay him for the pleasure- how strange is that?. I remarked, in that thread, that his plan was a "dog's breakfast" in terms of logistics alone and the entire plan is ill advised. Then he preceided to do the wedding and posted again with a blow-by-blow commentary about his equipment failures, lenses that were incompatible with his camera bodies and the incompetence of one of his "second shooters". That's not a joke because it just ain't funny! Lord have mercy on that bride! Well- she did go for the deal! He also remarked that the job was difficult. Many wedding photographers create self inflicted difficulties for themselves- when folks have little or no investment in their photographer they tend not to cooperate as much, oftentimes, not at all!
Here's the sad part- there is absolutely nothing you, I or anyone else can do about the hacks- they will not be discouraged. I have been intimately involved in full time professional wedding photography, portraiture and commercial photography for over fifty years and the HACKS have always been there and they ain't going away anytime soon! With the advent of more automated photographic systems, in fact, their numbers have increased exponentially and they are more emboldened than ever before.
As a conscientious professional, all I can do is try to educate all my potential clients as to the advantages of contracting an experienced professional. I go to the extent of telling all the couples that come to my studio inquiring about my wedding services, that even if they don't hire me, to seek out another competent pro who is more in keeping with their requirements or price expectations. I also try to encourage serious amateur photographers who are aspiring to professionalism in wedding photography, to take the courses, hit the books, do the research and serve a significant apprenticeship as an assistant. Going out of a few weddings, even with a top pro, just won't do it. There is lots of hard work and a gradual transition even for the most talented trainee.
Teasing, razzing or even warning or admonishing the hacks, especially online, just makes things worse- they take it as a challenge- it's kind of a reverse encouragement whereby you end up egging them on. Then everyone in the thread chimes with "good advice" about the use of a certain flash bracket or perhaps a more safe programmed camera mode and someone always tells the guy or gal to go out, not to worry and have a good time - "after all- it's not rocket science"! . OK, collectively, perhaps some of the technical advice is valid but the nasty fact is, the hack does not know what the hell or she doing. This is all frustrating to watch!
Just like in every business and profession, there are always hacks, charlatans and fast buck artists. I never though of them as competition because they don't affect my business in terms of my "bottom line" but the do affect the entire wedding photography industry in a different way. So many of the hacks exhibit boorish or fumbling behavior at wedding ceremonies and receptions and do poor work to boot! The bad PR rubs off on the ethical and compassionate photographers who are trying to do things properly. I have heard stories form church officials, the clergy and catering professionals. I have heard things from friends, family members and clients, about their experiences with the hacks, that make me cringe! Yeah- and then someone advises that the take a good stiff drink before the job. I always tell my trainees and staff that if the even smell booze on the job, I will murder them in their sleep! They dig my sense of humor but they get my drift!
Perhaps my term "wedding haters" is a bit harsh but let me tell you, I have heard some pretty disparaging and snarky remarks about professional photographers in general- right here on the Hog! There is a detectable degree of resentment. There are so may folks here who have a propensity for painting the hacks and the real pros with the same brush- could be that some of them simply don't know the difference or they are significantly ill informed. Innocently enough, there are probably some niece well meaning but inexperienced and ill-equipped people who just want to help someone out financially and offer their photographic services, however, they too are ill informed and have no idea what they are undertaking.
To be fair, when it comes to hiring inapt wedding shooters, the hacks are not completely at fault- the consumers have to take some of the blame. Some folks will spend a fortune on all their other wedding services but do not consider their photography as a priority, that is, until the hack messes up- then it becomes a major disappointment and serious complaint. Many of the hacks meet their career Armageddon in a court room having to defend a devastating lawsuit. Unfortunately enough, there is always someone who is willing to do a lesser job for lesser pay and they always find customers who are similarly inclined and seek out "bargains".
All the good guys and gals can do is continue to serve their clients with the utmost respect, service and product, garner a loyal clientele and plenty of referrals and keep on trucken'! It ain't easy work, it's not for the lazy photographer or the faint of heart.
Sep 11, 2017 21:55:54 #
7 or 8 years ago when I was first learning photography I lived on the main section and learned a ton. There are some salt of the earth folks there like Captain C. He helped me so much and his work and his charity is exemplary. However, I don't go there anymore. I am not sure what a troll is. Not sure how to describe those people, but they get their jollys from tearing down people if they don't approve of the question being asked. Not all, but I would put it at 20%. They go into the "you are not worthy" attack mode and make them feel like crap for even asking.
There was a guy recently who asked what the market rate for sports photography was. I clicked on it because although I don't do sports photography I was curious as well. The guy was bashed and degraded for asking the question because his equipment was not up to par according to the "experts". Of course if he had to ask then he is not worthy. He was bashed for not knowing how to cost his business. In the end he never got anything close to an answer. It seems like most of the threads go that way.
It is not everywhere. I enjoy a couple of forums outside the UHH where people gladly share photography experiences. Within the UHH I only participate in the wedding and sometimes the people section. Actually, most of the specialty sections are more cooperative but the main section seems to have evolved into an enter at your own risk free for all.
There was a guy recently who asked what the market rate for sports photography was. I clicked on it because although I don't do sports photography I was curious as well. The guy was bashed and degraded for asking the question because his equipment was not up to par according to the "experts". Of course if he had to ask then he is not worthy. He was bashed for not knowing how to cost his business. In the end he never got anything close to an answer. It seems like most of the threads go that way.
It is not everywhere. I enjoy a couple of forums outside the UHH where people gladly share photography experiences. Within the UHH I only participate in the wedding and sometimes the people section. Actually, most of the specialty sections are more cooperative but the main section seems to have evolved into an enter at your own risk free for all.
Sep 12, 2017 12:46:54 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Hi G! br br Yes, I read those posts- both spoke o... (show quote)
Ahhh, so YOU'RE the author of that dogs breakfast quotation. That was very apropos ! I enjoyed reading you sir both then and now.
Sep 13, 2017 16:10:37 #
Hi all, sorry I haven't been here much. Extremely busy opening up a new medical center, the photography jobs are actually so hot and heavy that I'm probably going to raise prices again just to slow it down. (good problem for a part timer)
Time to actually say something that may or may not shock everyone else. (those that know me, won't be surprised at all)
After shooting my first wedding solo in '84, (after apprenticing for almost 3 years), graduation from NYIP (twice) Worked in a pro lab while apprenticing, learning the ins and outs of photography and "editing" from the other side of the enlarger... Several (and I mean several) educational expenses including a couple with Monte Zucker... I still often will find myself feeling like I'm one of those hacks that get mentioned.
From my posts, you know that I'm always attempting to get better both at the photography, and business side. I ask a ton of questions (for being one of the "old guard of film". The problem is, if I ask something that I think will help me to achieve something better for my clients, I get shot down like "uncle Bob" (it's worse, because it's my name)
That's why I started this section. The reason I BEGGED Ed to join me as a moderator, is because I know there are a lot of people with a lot more wisdom, ability, and frankly, more artistic vision than me.
We are all at various stages of what we do. To always want to improve may make me a hack, or it may make me more valuable. I just know that I still go through photos of other photographers, both online, in magazines, and of my friends in the business, and I only wish I had the talent. Those times, I can either give up, because I feel like after all this time, I "should be better" so I must be a hack. or... I can use it as a learning experience.
I'm just so thankful that we have a group of people here, many don't post, but we just don't get all the nasty stuff that you get in other sections. At least when I feel a little frustrated or stuck, I know that I can "talk" to my friends here, and get some help and encouragement. I'd just like to thank everyone for being a part of this group, and for keeping it so positive.
That's all the sappy stuff I have for today...
bk
Time to actually say something that may or may not shock everyone else. (those that know me, won't be surprised at all)
After shooting my first wedding solo in '84, (after apprenticing for almost 3 years), graduation from NYIP (twice) Worked in a pro lab while apprenticing, learning the ins and outs of photography and "editing" from the other side of the enlarger... Several (and I mean several) educational expenses including a couple with Monte Zucker... I still often will find myself feeling like I'm one of those hacks that get mentioned.
From my posts, you know that I'm always attempting to get better both at the photography, and business side. I ask a ton of questions (for being one of the "old guard of film". The problem is, if I ask something that I think will help me to achieve something better for my clients, I get shot down like "uncle Bob" (it's worse, because it's my name)
That's why I started this section. The reason I BEGGED Ed to join me as a moderator, is because I know there are a lot of people with a lot more wisdom, ability, and frankly, more artistic vision than me.
We are all at various stages of what we do. To always want to improve may make me a hack, or it may make me more valuable. I just know that I still go through photos of other photographers, both online, in magazines, and of my friends in the business, and I only wish I had the talent. Those times, I can either give up, because I feel like after all this time, I "should be better" so I must be a hack. or... I can use it as a learning experience.
I'm just so thankful that we have a group of people here, many don't post, but we just don't get all the nasty stuff that you get in other sections. At least when I feel a little frustrated or stuck, I know that I can "talk" to my friends here, and get some help and encouragement. I'd just like to thank everyone for being a part of this group, and for keeping it so positive.
That's all the sappy stuff I have for today...
bk
Mar 18, 2022 17:42:53 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
"Main Photography Discussion br This is where... (show quote)
I share your feelings. There are a few members I can name in that category but won't. There are those that have a trolling instigating style that eventually becomes combative and insulting. I will never understand why people having a shared interest in photography have to be rude , nasty and juvenile.
May 1, 2022 13:51:00 #
EJMcD wrote:
I share your feelings. There are a few members I can name in that category but won't. There are those that have a trolling instigating style that eventually becomes combative and insulting. I will never understand why people having a shared interest in photography have to be rude , nasty and juvenile.
That is precisely why I don't post much, even here. Like BK, I usually feel like I don't measure up to the experience level, vision and quality that others posses.
Having said that: in this section, most are extremely encouraging, helpful and if asked will offer very helpful criticism. Two (actually three) key words: "if asked" and "helpful."
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.