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Aug 12, 2017 08:13:52   #
sb Loc: Florida's East Coast
 
I bought a refurbished Canon 6D last year. Amazed at the improved quality of photos with full-frame. I can crop more and still have good photos, and the low-light capability of this camera, which is well known, is amazing. I have very nice photos taken with an ISO of 18,000!

Below is a photo I took at the zoo recently of an anteater washing his/her tail. This photo has been compressed for posting, but it is still pretty nice - and because I was hand-holding my telephoto lens, the ISO needed to be high - it was 12,800!


(Download)

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Aug 12, 2017 08:28:13   #
sathca Loc: Narragansett Rhode Island
 
My d750 is smaller and lighter than my d610 and d7100 and it's a superior camera imho! As for image quality, yes if you can nail focus, exposure etc. you can enlarge to any size from both sensors but can you nail focus and exposure, with minimal noise, in all the similar situations with both? No!

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Aug 12, 2017 08:39:05   #
stevetassi
 
PHRubin wrote:
You can only blow up larger photos clearly if there are more megapixels.

One major advantage is larger "pixels" on the sensor for any given pixel count giving stronger low light performance.

In addition to heavier and more expensive, another disadvantage is larger bodies.


Your first statement is not true. The main advantage of more megapixels is headroom for cropping. Yes the resolution increases but keep in mind that the larger the image the greater the viewing distance.

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Aug 12, 2017 08:49:14   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
Just Fred wrote:
Simple answer: You can blow up full frame photos larger than you can cropped frame photos without losing resolution.



Are you sure? Both formats in cameras with the same number of megapixels should yield equal results. Regarding larger pixels, the Nikon D2H had large and fat pixels and was one of the worst cameras when it came to noise.

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Aug 12, 2017 08:55:37   #
blackest Loc: Ireland
 
billnikon wrote:
ie

Wide angle lenses capture much more on a full frame than they can on a cropped sensor. Cropped sensor cameras take advantage of the center sharpness of a lens and is great for lengthening long lens reach. ie. a 300 mm lens on a cropped sensor lens becomes a 450 mm, the cropped sensor puts more EFFECTIVE MEGAPIXELS on the subject than a full frame. This being said I use both for their are advantages that both bring to the table. I use the D810 and the D500.


More pixels on the subject than a full frame? That depends on what cameras you are comparing. My K5 is a 16Mpix crop sensor camera, compared with the Pentax K1 which is a full frame 36Mpix which for the crop area also has 16Mpix. Both camera's can use the same lenses, so in good light the image quality for the crop sensor area, should be near identical, in low light the more modern K1 sensor design should be lower noise. If I was photographing a Norwegian Blue, from the same distance in good light that fits within the crop sensor area there would be little difference. However since the K1 doesn't have an AA filter it should be sharper. A Nikon D800 would probably be around the same as my K5 as it has an AA filter theoretically (maybe in practice with a tamron adaptall II lens , the lens could be shared).

Now it's true the Norwegian Blue would be larger in the viewfinder in the K5 than the K1 or D800 simply because they are designed to show the coverage of their sensor area. Manually focusing you might have an advantage with the K5 over the others because you can see the subject that bit larger. However the focus system on the k1 and k5 will both tell you when the subject is in focus. In the k5 a little green hexagon lights up to confirm focus. I've never beaten it yet, every photo i've taken where it hasn't agreed with me has been out of focus at the focus point :) With an AF lens thats not back or forward focusing both camera's will be comparing identically sized points at the same magnification through the lens.

So really the viewfinder only helps frame the shot, it doesn't play a part in focus.

The Canon 5DS has 1.3x 30 Mpix and 1.6 20Mpix crop modes so there isn't much in it for pixel density between crop and that full frame. If the rumoured Nikon D850 with its 45ish mpix sensor is true, there won't be a deal of difference there either.

This only really matters if you are cropping your captured image quite severely, I may be wrong but 6Mpix is enough resolution for an 8 by 10 at normal viewing distances. So without cropping pretty much every dslr and m43 camera has enough pixel density to provide good images.

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Aug 12, 2017 09:06:46   #
SusanFromVermont Loc: Southwest corner of Vermont
 
SharpShooter wrote:
For most people, absolutely NO advantage.
When you start to experience the shortcomings of crop, you'll be ready to move on to FF.
Until those disadvantages show up, even though FF has advantages, you won't experience them.
SS

I think you have described it perfectly! Everyone has their own photographic objectives, and therefore can be satisfied with various cameras accordingly. It took me 5 years of learning to use my first DSLR [Nikon D7000] and of exchanging lenses for FX lenses, buying other accessories [such as a good tripod], etc. before I was ready to buy a FF body. The shortcomings of DX were becoming clear long before that, but I wanted to make sure I was ready for FX [and a good price]!

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Aug 12, 2017 09:13:15   #
gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast
 
PHRubin wrote:
You can only blow up larger photos clearly if there are more megapixels.

One major advantage is larger "pixels" on the sensor for any given pixel count giving stronger low light performance.

In addition to heavier and more expensive, another disadvantage is larger bodies.


This is the best answer yet. Better in low light because the pixels themselves are bigger. It's amazing how many don't understand this simple little relationship.

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Aug 12, 2017 09:18:18   #
danniel Loc: North Port, Florida
 
danniel wrote:
larger pixels meaning you can shoot in lower light or lower ISO noise. Transitions between shadow and light more refined. but youl lose the crop factor on the lens so everything will look farther away with the same mm lens as apposed to the same lens on a crop sensor. Transitions can be partially dealt with in editing. I am considering a FF myself to take my shots to a slightly higher level, but as most will tell you FF is more costly, as are the lenses, and heavier bodies. And youl want to get a good one, read plenty of reviews.
all IMO of course
larger pixels meaning you can shoot in lower light... (show quote)

That being said I still shoot with a crop sensor, and I still am happy with my shots. I don't expect a miraculous change from a FF, just a slight bump in quality if I shoot and choose wisely

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Aug 12, 2017 09:21:05   #
SusanFromVermont Loc: Southwest corner of Vermont
 
jradose wrote:
As I read the responses, I feel many are "sarcastic," and really do not answer your question. First, let me say, one can take good photos with most any camera, I have heard it said, "the camera does not make the photographer, the photographer makes the camera." That is true to a certain extent. But, the bottom line is, a full frame camera will produce better photos! Since the sensor is larger, it captures light better, thus making full frame cameras better in low light situations. Since the sensor is larger, a full frame camera can capture pictures that are more crisp, and sharp. I recently obtained a Nikon D3, and the quality of the photos are so much more superior than the photos of my D7100. Photos taken at ISO 6400 have less noise with the D3 than photos captured with the D7100 at ISO 1600, and less noise equates to sharper detail. I am the same photographer, so the difference in photo quality MUST be the result of the camera. So, yes, better equipment will produce better photos, IMHO. And yes, the D3 is a beast of a camera, heavy. But, when I mount my Nikkor 200-500 mm lens on it, the balance is unbelievable, and I can shoot handheld, and I am 73 years old. Now, I would not want to be on a 5 hour shoot, hand holding that combo the entire time. But, for my style, I can hand hold and get excellent shots.
As I read the responses, I feel many are "sar... (show quote)

Your response has highlighted the situation where a very good artist/craftsperson can create wonderful things with the tools they have, but eventually will get better tools that help them to further refine their work. We can make a lot of progress, improving our skills, with whatever camera and lenses we have. But the camera and lenses we have may become a limiting factor. THAT is when better gear can open us up to another level of photographic achievement! [I have been amazed by how much better images are captured by my D810. Unfortunately the camera is still limited by my skills!...]

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Aug 12, 2017 09:24:45   #
danniel Loc: North Port, Florida
 
great answer. and thus one of the reasons why I would like to move to a Full frame, for the lower noise levels and greater low light capabilities. That is pretty much my goal for a full frame.
But I would keep my crop for those darling little damselflies :)

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Aug 12, 2017 09:43:23   #
jcwood
 
If you go FF you wont have to join a gym and work out. Ever seen how weak and wormy the punk framed people are. Don't be like them. Man up.

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Aug 12, 2017 09:48:01   #
LoneRangeFinder Loc: Left field
 
jcwood wrote:
If you go FF you wont have to join a gym and work out. Ever seen how weak and wormy the punk framed people are. Don't be like them. Man up.

Yeah that 15 grams difference between the D750 and the D7100 will break you. FWIW, the FF D750 is the lighter one.

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Aug 12, 2017 09:55:54   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
Photowiz wrote:
What is the advantage of a full frame body vs. cropped frame?


Just be sure to also Google the disadvantages of full frame, versus a cropped sensor camera.

For example:

- More expensive (generally speaking).
- Less lens selection (cannot use "crop only" lenses, while OTOH a crop camera can use both FF and crop lenses).
- Necessitates bigger, heavier, more expensive lenses (in order to frame a distant subject the same way with FF you need a 500mm lens, where a 300mm serves the same purpose on a crop camera).
- Slower performance (generally speaking... slower frame rate, slower flash sync, etc.)
- Louder and more internal vibrations (generally speaking, due to bigger mirror and larger shutter).
- More than most people actually need (they just think they do, because they view their images at 100% while editing them, which is roughly equivalent to making a 40x60" print, then viewing it from 18 to 20" away, many people never actually print or utilize their images large enough to see the difference).
- Bigger full frame image files fill up memory cards and hard drives faster, plus might require a more powerful computer to post-process efficiently.

Possible advantages of FF.

- More enlargeability or more crop-ability (larger pixel sites may capture more fine detail... but you gotta print really big or crop heavily to see any advantage).
- Some additional control over depth of field effects (large apertures appear to give stronger effect, small apertures show a little less loss to diffraction).
- Better low light capability (higher usable ISOs, due to less crowded sensors that make for less heat build up and less cross-talk, among other things... but this is not always the case. For example, a 50MP full frame Canon 5DS has about the same pixel density and is nowhere near as high-ISO capable as a 20MP APS-C Canon 7D Mark II.)
- Better corrected very wide lenses, i.e. less distortion (though ultrawides for crop have seen a lot of improvements over 10 or 12 years and are now pretty close).

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Aug 12, 2017 10:02:22   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Gene51 wrote:
There is an urban legend that states that more megapixels is better if you are making large prints. Apple may not have gotten the memo when they ran their ad campaign for iPhone 5, 6 and 7 - where they used 8 and 12 mp images from their phones to create billboard-sized images to extol the quality of their phones' cameras. So much for that legend.

This is the more accurate information regarding megapixels and print sizing:

http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_which_resolution_print_size_viewing_distance.htm

When you make a print from a larger sensor compared to a cropped sensor camera, you have to magnify the original image 50% more. to get to the same print size. So an 8x12 has a diagonal of 36.6 cm. A full frame sensor has a diagonal of 4.32. The magnification factor of a full frame sensor to get to that 8x12 print, assuming no cropping, is roughly 8.5x. But an APS-C sensor with a 1.5 crop factor has a diagonal of 2.82, so to get to that 8x12 you have to magnify the image 13x. Along with that you magnify focus softness, chromatic aberrations, noise, and other image flaws by 50% over the larger sensor. The end result is that all things being equal, which they are not, the crop sensor camera cannot produce the same level of image quality. No one seems to understand this.

Another urban legend is the matter of increased "reach" when you use a crop camera. when you compare the output from an 11.5 mp image from a D800 (in DX mode) to the same image using a 12 mp DX camera like a D300, using the same lens with the image centered in the viewfinder, you will be hard pressed to tell the difference. This is not a great comparison since there are some "generational" differences where sensor and processor technology is older and noisier in the D300, but assuming decent light, there will be nothing that would make one any better than the other.

If you compare a 20 or 24 mp APS-C camera then the detail capture is likely better due to the smaller pixels and greater pixel density, but the noise will be worse. I shoot birds and wildlife, and image quality on a D800 is noticeably superior to any crop camera, and I've tried the D500 and D7200. Not a fan of either. They are great cameras, but not for the way I use a camera.

I would rather have a 36mp full frame sensor when using a 600mm lens where the subject is less likely to fill the frame, than a very tight composition with the same lens on a crop sensor, with little to no margin of error.

Main advantage of full frame - better image quality, especially when printed or projected. If discussing high mp cameras then a greater ability to crop and still maintain image quality when using sharp lenses. If looking at low mp cameras like a D3S or D700 at 12 mp, the giant pixels provide exceptionally good light gathering and even though these are old cameras, they still provide outstanding high ISO, low light performance, compared to current cameras. Lenses for full frame cameras cost more, but are usually better in build quality, sharpness, color rendition, light transmission, dust and moisture sealing etc - worth every penny. Full frame camera bodies tend to be bigger, and if you have large hands, they will feel more comfortable.

Oh, and one last thing - crop sensor cameras, using the same lens at the same distance, will have LESS depth of field than full frame cameras. The full frame camera will have roughly 50% greater DoF, front to back. What befuddles everyone is that the comparison where crop cameras are believed to have more DoF is not made with the same focal length at the same distance, but rather the same "composition" or size of the subject in the frame, which necessitates the camera being moved back from the subject which in turn results in greater DoF when using a crop camera. If you have any doubts, consult your favorite online DoF caculator.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dof-calculator.htm
http://www.outsight.com/hyperfocal.html
http://www.photopills.com/calculators/dof
http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm

They are all consistent.

The disadvantages of full frame are not related to image quality - full frame cameras and lenses and filters are usually bigger and heavier and more expensive, and they are often noisier. They can be more intrusive in certain situations when a small quiet camera is an advantage.

And Zach Arias is a funny guy, for sure.

The same discussion was brought up when Olympus Yashica (they had the Samurai DSLR), Rollie 35, Alpa and other camera mfgrs made half-frame cameras in the 50s and 60s - they had lower image quality, and as a result, were not taken very seriously by the professional community.
There is an urban legend that states that more meg... (show quote)


Excellent summary.

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Aug 12, 2017 10:13:49   #
splitwindow Loc: Grapevine TX
 
My experience- I was using a Nikon D-300 to shoot my daughters dance recitals and was not happy with the results so I picked up a full frame D-700 and the difference was dramatic. Same photographer, different camera. I love the D-700.

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