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A Genuine Composite
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Dec 12, 2016 17:21:29   #
magnetoman Loc: Purbeck, Dorset, UK
 
If I post a composite image I feel obliged to say that it's a composite - either at the time of posting or, if it's a bit tongue in cheek, after people have had chance to see it and comment. Most viewers, I guess, prefer not to be duped! Reading the latest issue of Outdoor Photography (a UK publication), I was interested to read one of the finalists in the Red Bull Illume competition describe his entry as '...a composite image but it is genuine'. He went on to say that there are no additional or fake components.
It is a beautiful image of a champion freediver in an underwater cave, and obviously took a huge amount of planning and execution. But is it 'genuine' in the sense that shouldn't it be a single shot? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and, as I can't show the shot, give you my own to consider in the same light. It is a single shot, but the shoes were originally on the very edge of the crop. In the centre, I feel they give the image much more meaning. The giveaway is that the shoes are not sharp, I know, but would you want to told beforehand that this is a (genuine) composite, or do you accept that the final image is all that needs judging?


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Dec 12, 2016 17:45:22   #
minniev Loc: MIssissippi
 
magnetoman wrote:
If I post a composite image I feel obliged to say that it's a composite - either at the time of posting or, if it's a bit tongue in cheek, after people have had chance to see it and comment. Most viewers, I guess, prefer not to be duped! Reading the latest issue of Outdoor Photography (a UK publication), I was interested to read one of the finalists in the Red Bull Illume competition describe his entry as '...a composite image but it is genuine'. He went on to say that there are no additional or fake components.
It is a beautiful image of a champion freediver in an underwater cave, and obviously took a huge amount of planning and execution. But is it 'genuine' in the sense that shouldn't it be a single shot? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and, as I can't show the shot, give you my own to consider in the same light. It is a single shot, but the shoes were originally on the very edge of the crop. In the centre, I feel they give the image much more meaning. The giveaway is that the shoes are not sharp, I know, but would you want to told beforehand that this is a (genuine) composite, or do you accept that the final image is all that needs judging?
If I post a composite image I feel obliged to say ... (show quote)


I appreciate the fun of it whether the shoes were there or on the edge or came from another picture you took 10 years ago. I don't worry, either, about which parts of a painting were added or deducted from a scene. I love to watch a painter work and see how they deal with items they want to move around in the scene. If I were a news editor or managing a photography contest that forbade composites, I would have to care, but as a viewer, potential buyer, or as a photographer, an image stands for me on its merits. Noticeable flaws, whether induced by compositing, or bad focus, or camera motion, do detract.

I do very little compositing except for fun and practice but have the intent to keep working on it and improve.

This one, IMHO, is genuinely your work. And an enjoyable image.

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Dec 12, 2016 18:24:09   #
magnetoman Loc: Purbeck, Dorset, UK
 
minniev wrote:
I appreciate the fun of it whether the shoes were there or on the edge or came from another picture you took 10 years ago. I don't worry, either, about which parts of a painting were added or deducted from a scene. I love to watch a painter work and see how they deal with items they want to move around in the scene. If I were a news editor or managing a photography contest that forbade composites, I would have to care, but as a viewer, potential buyer, or as a photographer, an image stands for me on its merits. Noticeable flaws, whether induced by compositing, or bad focus, or camera motion, do detract.

I do very little compositing except for fun and practice but have the intent to keep working on it and improve.

This one, IMHO, is genuinely your work. And an enjoyable image.
I appreciate the fun of it whether the shoes were ... (show quote)


You seem to have pretty much the same take on composites as me Min. Also with you on the painting front. The first thing I noticed when visiting some spots painted by Turner was how he had manipulated the scene to make the very best of it. Just what we can do with the likes of Ps.

Whilst I also think along the same lines when looking at images composited from bought or gifted components, I personally find less satisfaction in making the image if all the components are not of my taking.

Thanks for your views.

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Dec 12, 2016 18:29:33   #
minniev Loc: MIssissippi
 
magnetoman wrote:
You seem to have pretty much the same take on composites as me Min. Also with you on the painting front. The first thing I noticed when visiting some spots painted by Turner was how he had manipulated the scene to make the very best of it. Just what we can do with the likes of Ps.

Whilst I also think along the same lines when looking at images composited from bought or gifted components, I personally find less satisfaction in making the image if all the components are not of my taking.

Thanks for your views.
You seem to have pretty much the same take on comp... (show quote)


I agree with you about wanting to use my components. The exception is usually when I want to incorporate something I can't shoot (like John Muir in my entry in the MIYL this week), or something I'm using as a graphic element like a texture or a computer generated Christmas ornament. I don't have misgivings about using open source art but it's more fun if it's my stuff.

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Dec 12, 2016 18:35:06   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
Composites are alive and well, some terrific ones out there, but they are not a real single
image capture and do not deserve the same status.
They should not be judged by the same standards which means we should have the
means to differentiate them from real captures.

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Dec 12, 2016 19:12:51   #
magnetoman Loc: Purbeck, Dorset, UK
 
oldtigger wrote:
Composites are alive and well, some terrific ones out there, but they are not a real single
image capture and do not deserve the same status.
They should not be judged by the same standards which means we should have the
means to differentiate them from real captures.


I agree that, if judging, we need to know the brief, or criteria, that the image was meant to meet. If we are simply viewing the image in its own right, why can't we allow it the same status whether a single or composite shot? Either may have required a lot of planning and execution, and skill. To answer my own question with another, maybe it's that, being photographers we think more 'in the moment' than an artist might and this makes us judge by that criteria, even when simply evaluating an image?

Thanks for contributing oldtigger, you're making me think a bit deeper!

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Dec 12, 2016 19:43:13   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
magnetoman wrote:
... you're making me think a bit deeper!

one parting shot:
Though both schools require skill and planning to get that final image and deserve our respect;
the single image remains something special and precious for me because the artist was nature.

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Dec 13, 2016 03:13:18   #
Billyspad Loc: The Philippines
 
Too much talk about nothing Dave and Im distressed to hear it has led you to think a bit deeper. Do what ya like tell all or say nothing. Simple choice mate. As long as the image suits you publish it however you wish. The problem with the 100% honest approach is it colors what folks think and say. oldtigger is differentiating between au naturelle and a manipulated image. Why I would ask. Its the final image we see and decide whether we like it or not. How you got there is not important. Post a composite and the comment is likely to be "very nice...... BUT" Tell em zilch and the comment will be simply "very nice".
With this image I reckon no one would have guessed so honesty could shoot you in the foot or at least the shoe!

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Dec 13, 2016 03:23:50   #
magnetoman Loc: Purbeck, Dorset, UK
 
Billyspad wrote:
Too much talk about nothing Dave and Im distressed to hear it has led you to think a bit deeper. Do what ya like tell all or say nothing. Simple choice mate. As long as the image suits you publish it however you wish. The problem with the 100% honest approach is it colors what folks think and say. oldtigger is differentiating between au naturelle and a manipulated image. Why I would ask. Its the final image we see and decide whether we like it or not. How you got there is not important. Post a composite and the comment is likely to be "very nice...... BUT" Tell em zilch and the comment will be simply "very nice".
With this image I reckon no one would have guessed so honesty could shoot you in the foot or at least the shoe!
Too much talk about nothing Dave and Im distressed... (show quote)


Ah, but you still have an opinion on it Billy! Good to know you're there to keep us on the straight and narrow. Zilch it is then. Mind you, Frank will notice the shoes are not in focus!

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Dec 13, 2016 03:51:26   #
Billyspad Loc: The Philippines
 
magnetoman wrote:
Ah, but you still have an opinion on it Billy! Good to know you're there to keep us on the straight and narrow. Zilch it is then. Mind you, Frank will notice the shoes are not in focus!


As pixel peepers go he is good but not infallible.

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Dec 13, 2016 08:48:20   #
Frank2013 Loc: San Antonio, TX. & Milwaukee, WI.
 
I feel a bit picked on as I would have only commented on the minimal haloing along the rocks.....stinky shoe odor causing blurriness is expected. As for the posters question...I'm wondering what "genuine composite" genuinely means. If I were purchasing an image and asked, I think I would expect to be told the truth about it, otherwise.......

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Dec 13, 2016 08:51:45   #
Dave Chinn
 
magnetoman wrote:
If I post a composite image I feel obliged to say that it's a composite - either at the time of posting or, if it's a bit tongue in cheek, after people have had chance to see it and comment. Most viewers, I guess, prefer not to be duped! Reading the latest issue of Outdoor Photography (a UK publication), I was interested to read one of the finalists in the Red Bull Illume competition describe his entry as '...a composite image but it is genuine'. He went on to say that there are no additional or fake components.
It is a beautiful image of a champion freediver in an underwater cave, and obviously took a huge amount of planning and execution. But is it 'genuine' in the sense that shouldn't it be a single shot? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and, as I can't show the shot, give you my own to consider in the same light. It is a single shot, but the shoes were originally on the very edge of the crop. In the centre, I feel they give the image much more meaning. The giveaway is that the shoes are not sharp, I know, but would you want to told beforehand that this is a (genuine) composite, or do you accept that the final image is all that needs judging?
If I post a composite image I feel obliged to say ... (show quote)


Dave I concur with Minnie. IMO, putting together a composite is a thought process, which stimulates the imagination. I love doing them while at the same time coming up with different ideas. Some images (depending on the image in mind) I make every attempt to keep it as realistic as possible, such as you have done here. Some I feel are no different than an artistic painter painting a scene of their choice. Sometimes I reveal that its a composite while other times I don't until I get some feedback to see actually how well I have done in adding or moving objects within the image. Thats my take on composites.

Your image, by moving the shoes and out of focus, to me is not an issue. They are not that far out of focus, so it works for me.
Dave

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Dec 13, 2016 09:03:20   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
The topic has come up a few times in FYC, most recently, I believe, in Chuck's topic:

http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-406776-1.html

My thoughts are along the lines of old tigger's "should not be judged by the same standards." Example: if someone says they hiked 10 miles into wilderness and stayed awake all night in freezing temperatures to get the shot, I don't want to find out after-the-fact that they added a gorgeous full moon from another image.

As a nature lover who has been fortunate enough to experience fleeting and awe-inspiring moments, I want to connect with the photographer's experience, and maybe dream it could some day happen to me.

Dave, your re-positioning of the shoes changed the story, as you suggested yourself; therefore I want to know that it was your own imagination creating the result, not your keen eye for the moment as seen. Hence the "judging differently" part.

So those are my criteria for wanting to be informed of composite work -
a "significant change to the story" (and yes, I realize that is hard to quantify and also varies by both viewer and what the artist intended). I want to be able to appreciate the imagination and creativity of the artist doing the composite, or

the desire to feel a connection to the reality a nature photographer captured (and no, that's not a vote for sooc, lol).

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Dec 13, 2016 09:16:20   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
There are a million composites out there that deserve our praise but for me
they will never have the'magic', the 'exhilaration', of being in the right place, at the right time
and recognizing it.

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Dec 13, 2016 10:17:59   #
magnetoman Loc: Purbeck, Dorset, UK
 
Frank2013 wrote:
I feel a bit picked on as I would have only commented on the minimal haloing along the rocks.....stinky shoe odor causing blurriness is expected. As for the posters question...I'm wondering what "genuine composite" genuinely means. If I were purchasing an image and asked, I think I would expect to be told the truth about it, otherwise.......


I more sort of rely on you rather than pick on you Frank - it's a confidence-builder if my post passes your muster!

Maybe it's the fact we have to ask that starts to worry us a little - a need to know that, wow, that really came together or, for certain, that's a clever bit of compositing. Boils down to not wanting to feel duped.

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