Japakomom Loc: Originally from the Last Frontier

A little background. I have been using a 6D for the last several years and pretty much keep the camera set to use the center spot for focusing. I do not have knowledge or experience using a sophisticated focusing system. My interests lie in landscape, nature, and other slow moving subjects, BUT... I have 3 sons and football is a big part of our family. I am the photographer for all football games that our local high school plays. I have been shooting with my 6D and have done pretty well overall. Yesterday, I fortuitously became the owner of a 5D Mark IV, but now I need help understanding the complex (at least to me) focusing system. I have read the manual and still do not understand when and why to use the different choices. I have searched the internet to find sites and/or videos to explain and have come up empty handed. My first question: How different is the Mark 4 system from the Mark 3? Will learning about the Mark 3 correlate with the Mark 4? Do you know of a source to learn this system? Or can you guide me to the best way to set up the focusing for nighttime high school football games?

Last night, after having the camera 3 hours, I used the new camera to shoot a football game using only the center focus point. Blew the 6D away, but I know I want to use the full capability of the new camera. I would appreciate any help I can get!

TIA!

chaman

Have you tried You Tube? Just a crazy thought.....

Japakomom Loc: Originally from the Last Frontier

Yes, I have not found any videos pertaining to the ins and outs of the focusing system.

cmc65

I think you will find that the focus system in the 5d mk IV is identical to the 1
Dx mkii. Also make sure to read the expanded manual on the cd that probably came w your camera when I got my 7d mk II I was at a loss for good information on how to use it. Then I loaded the cd and voila, like magic most of what I needed was there.

Japakomom Loc: Originally from the Last Frontier

Thank you for the tip about the CD! That is still in the box. I will load it and see what I can find. I will have to see what I can find regarding the 1DX mk II. Thanks again!

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

LoL, TIA, so yo finally got a real camera?!?! Probably not a lot of info out yet on that camera and few have it yet. I have no idea how similar it is to the past focus systems on the pro cameras but probably a lot. Canon has heen keeping thing pretty similar.
I suggest you call Canon tech and ask them if there's a tutorial already on the Learning Center of the Canon website. You can always ask Tech to give you some pointers too. They're always happy to help, that's why Canon Tech Service is famous. I've never seen one of the new IV's but I'm sure you'll like it once you have it all dialed in!! Good luck
SS

LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY

The 5D IV's focus system is almost identical to the 7DII. I have both cameras, as well as a 6D. When I first got the 7DII after being used to the 6D I was at a loss, just like you are now. Fortunately, for the 7DII Canon quickly came out with a 51 page manual devoted solely to the auto focus system.There may be some slight differences between it and the 5DIV, but so far I haven't found them. If you can operate the AF on the 7DII you should have no problem with the 5DIV. I will see if I can find the pdf.

Edit: You can download it here:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2014/eos7dmk2_afGuidebook.shtml

Japakomom Loc: Originally from the Last Frontier

Yep, after 20 years of marriage the 5D Mark IV and the 100-400 mk II was my reward. I did try Canon Tech after reading your reply - the guy was just as helpful (as my dad would say) as a "tit on a bull cow." So, I just started watching videos about the 7D Mark II focus system. Although not exactly the same, they seem to be pretty close.
I was looking at the 5D Mark III, but started thinking that if I was to go out and purchase a new computer I wouldn't be looking for something that came out several years ago. That argument seemed to work with the computer hardware engineer in the family.

Japakomom Loc: Originally from the Last Frontier

Thank you for the link! I finally started watching youtube videos on the 7D Mk II, figuring that they were fairly close. The PDF you linked is even better! Thanks again!

LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY

You're welcome! In case you are not aware of it, on many of the settings pages in the menu you will see, near the bottom, the word Help. When you see that, if you push the Info button, next to the Menu button, it will bring up a description of what the setting does, how it works, etc. Often quite helpful.

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

It is too new for a lot to be out there, so for now Center Point because you are used to it. Tips that apply to the 1DxII*, 7DII and 5DIII will work with the IV until specific stuff is available.
Here are three Canon pdf manuals about focus with those three cameras: (may take a while to load the pdf, but then save it, print it etc.)
5DIII http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/product/cameras/eos_5d_mark_iii/AF_guide_EOS5D_MarkIII_eng_January2013.pdf
7DII http://media.canon-asia.com/shared/live/products/EN/K289AFGuideBook_web.pdf
1DxII http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/education/technical/eos_1d_x_explained/AF_guide_EOS-1DX_eng.pdf

*5DIV got it's AF system from the 1DxII so this is your best bet.

Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina

The focus system is similar to the 1Dx II but the tracking sensor on the 5D IV is half the resolution of the 1Dx II. So the 1Dx II has the superior focus system to the 5D IV. That said you can try case 4 for your football shooting. There are several videos on YouTube that talk about the focus system and the settings that a couple 1Dx II pro shooters used for the Super Bowl and BIF shooting too. The one thing that came across was to not start changing the parameters of the cases out of the start because this could actually cause the loss of focus. Stick with the default settings and work with those. Super Bowl shooters actually said they used single point mode for many of their shots too.

Best,
Todd Ferguson
Harrisburg, NC

amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA

I don't have 5DIV, but do shoot with 7DII, which are very similar.

Single Point will still be your best way to use the camera, for the highest percentage of in-focus shots. It puts you most in control... but requires you do the most work.

Difference between the 6D and 5D-series (III and IV, at least), is that with 6D only the center point was usable, its other 10 points are pretty much worthless for tracking movement. With 5DIV, you now can use more of the 61 AF points (though one or a few at the center are still further enhanced with fast lenses). Up to 41 of those points are "cross type", and quite usable for sports/action shooting.

Single Point demands the most effort from the user, but gives the best results overall as long as you do your part. You might experiment with Zone, Small Zone and the Expansion modes at some point. Those can be good when you are having trouble keeping a single point on the subject, but you'll see more missed focus shots with these modes, which rely more on the camera's automation to choose where to focus (it will usually focus on the closest object covered by an active AF point).

The difference between Zone and Expansion is pretty simple. Zone is like a scaled down version of All Points/Auto Selection. Any of the AF points in the selected area can start focus or take it over. Mulitple points might achieve focus at the same time. Expansion, on the other hand, starts out with a single point that you choose, then allows the camera to pass off focusing to the adjacent AF points, if you fail to keep the starting point on the subject.

I think you'll find there are two Zone (small and large) and two Expansion (4-point and 8-point). This is what 7DII has, and an increase from one of each of these in the earlier model.

Other settings:

You probably already know, you MUST be in AI Servo mode (and most people like to use Back Button Focusing with that) to shoot active sports.

Personally I don't use the "Cases". Not a fan of "presets" of any type, I like to make my own settings. But you don't have a choice so I just leave Case 1 (Versatile) set all the time, and have modified it slightly (more on that below).

You'll find some other important focus-related adjustments (look in the "AF" pages of the menu, earlier models these were under Custom Functions)...

Look for settings that prioritizes shutter release versus focus (there are these only for AI Servo on older models, both for AI Servo and for One Shot on newer).... 1st shot and 2nd shot. It's up to you, but I set this with focus priority high, even if it delays the release of the shutter a few milliseconds. After all, a shot that's not focused does me no good. The "1st shot" setting controls just that... the first shot in any series or a single shot. The 2nd shot setting governs 2nd and all subsequent shots in any continuous burst.

Also look for AI Servo "tracking speed" setting or "tracking sensitivity". Believe it or not, you may want to set this slower. This actually controls how quickly AI Servo will jump to a different point of focus, for example if an obstruction passes between you and your subject. If using BBF you can "dodge" the obstruction by stopping focus momentarily, then picking it up again after passing the obstruction. However, this settings can help too. It controls how quick the camera is to jump to a different point of focus and I find that slowing this down can be beneficial, especially when I'm out of practice. It does seem to slow down how quickly the camera reacts to a change in direction when a subject is moving erratically, though.... so when I'm doing better at it I'll sometimes turn the speed back up.

I bet the 5DIV is similar. On my 7DII this setting is no longer a Custom Function, but instead a "Tracking Speed" setting within the "Cases". Any of those can be modified by pressing the "Rate" button. With newer models using the more sophisticated AF systems, Canon has set aside a section of the menu instead of burying all the AF-related settings in the C.Fn's. For football field action, if I were using the Cases, I'd use "Case 2". (In fact, I just noticed the way I have modified Case 1, it's now the same settings as Case 2!).

5DIII has Intelligent Tracking and Recognition (iTR) AF, like the 1DX II. I think this uses the metering system in conjunction with the AF system, to recognize colors and shapes for improved tracking of movement. You might experiment with it, but should expect it to slow frame rate a little, probably more on 5DIV than 1DXII. My 7DII's have iTR AF too, but I just haven't experimented with it yet.

Like the 1DXII, 5DIV is "f8 capable" at all 61 AF points. Some earlier models were only f8-capable at their center AF point or a small group of points in the center. If they are f8-capable at all (6D is not, neither is original 7D or 70D).

AFAIK, 5DIV uses a single processor for everything.... image handling and AF. All the other 5D-series do. This will likely make it's AF a little less responsive than 7DII or 1DXII, both of which have a discrete chip running the AF, as well as a pair of processors handling image processing.

Still, 5DIV's AF should out-perform 5DIII's and 6D's, thanks to various improvements, added features and because of a more powerful processor.

Aside from setting focus/shutter release priority and possibly tracking sensitivity.... Keep it simple. I found early on with my 7D that all the fancy AF patterns were specialized and it was just as important to learn when not to use them, as when to use them. I was an early adopter of 7D and there was no guidance for the new AF system.... I got in trouble trying to use the fancy ones, saw my missed-focus percentage go way, way up. Almost gave up on the cameras, until I scaled it back and went back to simple, Single Point. Then I found the 7D's AF brilliant and really learned to appreciate the cameras (and used them for five years and about 150,000 clicks apiece).

I have more recently been using Small Zone a bit with action subjects, on my 7DII (which have a whole lot more AF points than original 7D).

I also found Spot Focus really helpful for certain things (Birds in Trees).... and the Zone for others (Birds in Flight). As mentioned above, I sometimes use Expansion Points with erratic moving subjects.

But, as much as possible I recommend using Single Point.

Pkfish Loc: Wilson Wy

Kelby has new 1 hour program on the 5dmk4. BUT you have to be a member ,20 month or 200 year. OR you can do a FREE 10 day trial. They still want your CC info in case you "forget" to cancel after 9 days.

Japakomom Loc: Originally from the Last Frontier

I want to thank each of you who replied! I have been studying both the focus systems on the 1DX MII and the 7D MII - slowly it is sinking in. Also, looking at last weeks pictures to see where things need to be tweaked. Hopefully, the game this Thursday is not rained out so that I have time to practice a little more before the Varsity game Friday.

Thanks again!