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You CANNOT get it right in the camera, unless...
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Mar 2, 2014 07:51:25   #
romanticf16 Loc: Commerce Twp, MI
 
selmslie wrote:
That was certainly worth viewing. It's not conclusive either way, as he admits at the end.
It was implied that an incident meter might give you a better starting point, but then you could just as easily dial in exposure compensation to get the camera to agree with the meter.
Nevertheless, I generally agree that we cannot nail the contrast and exposure to the point of being able to present the result without any adjustments, including dodging and burning. I don't think that the most skilled technical practitioners could do it without carefully controlling lighting and subject matter.
That was certainly worth viewing. It's not conclu... (show quote)

Contrast can be controlled with Gradient N.D. Filters in an oversize filter holder. This is often done by landscape photographers working from a tripod.

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Mar 2, 2014 07:57:00   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Tend to agree. Guessing here, but I suppose the news media, for example, have a crew that views and adjusts photographs quickly before publication, probably using actions that near instantly perform the needed adjustment.
Swamp Gator wrote:
I didn't see the video but I have to say that Mark would be off the mark if he truly believes "images shot for immediate publication as with news, sports, or magazines have to be used compromised as to potential ultimate quality as a result of imposed deadlines and lack of time to post process."

I see plenty of excellent news and sports images that do not look at all "compromised" and anything done for a magazine that is likely a weekly will have tons of time to do post processing if the situation is appropriate.

Even things shot on a strict deadline will more then likely need to be cropped and resized by a tech prior to publication so doing a quick Auto Contrast or something similar at the same time would not be a huge problem.

Now as far as news and sports go... backgrounds and objects in photos can not be swapped, removed or added but that is for journalistic integrity, not due to lack of time to PP.
Plus the whole idea of news and live action sports photos is to portray the realism of the scene and situation. The photographer and the publisher in those cases are not necessarily trying to produce pristine artwork.
I didn't see the video but I have to say that Mark... (show quote)

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Mar 2, 2014 09:21:45   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
CaptainC wrote:
Well I can say with at least a little authority that Images for competition cannot be entered if straight from the camera. ....

On the other hand, many of us can recall Kodachrome images that we displayed from a projector. The best of these had to be right out of the camera since there was no option to post process. Habits we developed from those constraints made us better photographers and less prone to post-process.

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Mar 2, 2014 11:02:43   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
selmslie wrote:
On the other hand, many of us can recall Kodachrome images that we displayed from a projector. The best of these had to be right out of the camera since there was no option to post process. Habits we developed from those constraints made us better photographers and less prone to post-process.


I read somewhere recently that film can span the dynamic range in most scenes as opposed to digital which cannot. That would explain a lot in this discussion. What we're dealing with here though is not film, but digital and since digital apparently cannot cover the broad range from extreme white to extreme black, where we want to settle on a possible compromise seems to be the issue for our current purpose.

I don't see that Mark's conclusion is left hanging in doubt. If I'm understanding all this, apparently, what he said was if it's for business deadlines, the assigned photographer does his best to get it near the middle and passes it off electronically on-site to the recipient, editor, etc., to manipulate, time permitting, as desired for final use so a photographer's job is done when an image leaves his hands without benefit of maximizing her/his work to its fullest potential while non-deadline commercial type shots are expected to be manipulated in post processing to the fullest extent of the potential of an image in order to be competitive in the photo market arena. But that does not mean that an image is "gotten right in the camera." It would just seem to mean that it is a usable image as is in some print media but can be improved in post processing.

That leaves the rest of us who shoot for pleasure and if we never enter our work in a contest or display in a gallery we can "get it right in the camera" every time since the only people we have to please is ourselves. So, when a shooter comes into uhh and boasts of "always getting it right in the camera," we can reasonably assume that those images to which she/he refers is primarily only important to that person and will therefore never be judged by a jury of her/his peers.

The only confusion I see in what Mark said is that it all depends on what you are going to use an image for whether or not it can be considered to have been "gotten right in the camera" and regardless of what an image will be used for and by whom, it can always be technically "improved" in post processing consequently an image that doesn't live up to its full potential without post processing can therefore never be technically as good straight out of the camera (SOOC) as it can be with post processing, all other things being equal. That doesn't seem to be very confusing to me.

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Mar 2, 2014 11:30:20   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
gessman wrote:
I read somewhere recently that film can span the dynamic range in most scenes as opposed to digital which cannot. ...

Digital is no more handicapped than Kodachrome or Fuji Velvia when it comes to dynamic range. It's negative film that has the advantage.

Color and B&W negative is only the first stage of a process that requires additional conversion and where, while we are at it, we can correct some errors in contrast and exposure at the same time. It could be argued that, since this step is always necessary, it is really part of the natural process rather than an optional post-process.

As with traditional negative film processing, dodging and burning, spotting, cropping and leveling an image were post-process steps that were considered routine. For a given negative, we often made/make test exposures for different durations to decide how long to expose the paper and whether to dodge and burn and for how long. You might think of this as post-processing the image or just refining the print.

Nevertheless, we all strive to get the best possible image in the camera so that we don't have to resort to a significant amount of work later. We don't always succeed but it is a worthy goal.

When it comes to transparency film you basically have one shot at getting it right. Filters, reflectors and light sources are among the few things you can do to control the result.

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Mar 2, 2014 12:04:32   #
PalePictures Loc: Traveling
 
gessman wrote:


That leaves the rest of us who shoot for pleasure and if we never enter our work in a contest or display in a gallery we can "get it right in the camera" every time since the only people we have to please is ourselves. So, when a shooter comes into uhh and boasts of "always getting it right in the camera," we can reasonably assume that those images to which she/he refers is primarily only important to that person and will therefore never be judged by a jury of her/his peers.

br b br That leaves the rest of us who shoot fo... (show quote)


Thanks for the post Gess!!!
That pretty much sums it up.
Anyone can become a legend in their own mind...Only a few can become a legend among legends. It's not what you think you know that matters. It's what you produce...
We know too much and are convinced of too little.

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Mar 2, 2014 17:09:04   #
doduce Loc: Holly Springs NC
 
PalePictures wrote:
Thanks for the post Gess!!!
That pretty much sums it up.
Anyone can become a legend in their own mind...Only a few can become a legend among legends. It's not what you think you know that matters. It's what you produce...
We know too much and are convinced of too little.


Perhaps we know too little and are convinced of too much???

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Mar 2, 2014 17:18:35   #
PalePictures Loc: Traveling
 
doduce wrote:
Perhaps we know too little and are convinced of too much???


I think that is also true. But I'm not too sure.
I do know that I would never go to Walmart and ask a worker how to get rich.
I wouldn't ask Warren Buffet either. I think he's still using tactics that worked years ago. Now the founders of Facebook or Google. I'm all ears.

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Mar 2, 2014 18:14:27   #
joer Loc: Northern Illinois
 
gessman wrote:
The subject of "getting it right in the camera vs. post processing keeps coming up here in uhh. I recently watched a video produced by Mark Wallace for AdoramaTV on this subject. He put it to a test you will want to see. It's 15 minutes long and well worth it.

Mark points out that images shot for immediate publication as with news, sports, or magazines have to be used compromised as to potential ultimate quality as a result of imposed deadlines and lack of time to post process. He also points out that it is absolutely compulsory that images for competition or to be hung in a gallery for sale must be post processed if they are to be competitive.

You can find Mark's video on youtube. Look for "Mark Wallace, Getting It Right in the Camera." It is his episode 235.

I won't comment further in this thread. It's self-explanatory but for any who do choose to comment, I will thank you in advance for your participation.
The subject of "getting it right in the camer... (show quote)


Excellent video. No big surprise. Thanks for the post.

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Mar 3, 2014 00:10:08   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread. I had hoped it would get more people viewing the video. I may resubmit the subject again in the near future. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I put it in "Main" a few days ago and it was moved to "Links and Resources" so I put it in again and left the url to the video out of it and this thread was left out of the daily digest completely. Maybe 3rd time it will get better exposure.

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Mar 3, 2014 04:55:53   #
bull drink water Loc: pontiac mi.
 
unless you are an expert with the best equipment "getting it right" is a subjective term. for most of us it's " getting it to our liking".

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Mar 3, 2014 12:34:00   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
bull drink water wrote:
unless you are an expert with the best equipment "getting it right" is a subjective term. for most of us it's " getting it to our liking".


Very true except in the case of the person whose idea of "getting it to his/her liking" is being offered as being synonymous with "perfection" which seems to happen each time the subject of in-camera v. post processing is brought up.

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Mar 3, 2014 13:22:28   #
PalePictures Loc: Traveling
 
Each time I read these discussions on getting it right in camera I look at the video of Scott Black (Be sure and set the resolution to 1080p).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3O0HysX1Ig

A master at digital compositing. Scott uses multiple images to create his art. He is a master of color and light.

I hope that one day I will be able to produce images of such beauty.... images that could never come straight from the camera.

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Mar 3, 2014 22:20:37   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
PalePictures wrote:
Each time I read these discussions on getting it right in camera I look at the video of Scott Black (Be sure and set the resolution to 1080p).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3O0HysX1Ig

A master at digital compositing. Scott uses multiple images to create his art. He is a master of color and light.

I hope that one day I will be able to produce images of such beauty.... images that could never come straight from the camera.


Man, there's some powerful drama happening there. Magnificent! Thanks for that url.

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Mar 3, 2014 22:36:32   #
Toolking Loc: Pacific Northwest
 
In some ways its like antique car restoration.

Most restorations are far and away better than the way the car ever rolled off the line but its the only way they bring the big bucks or win the big competitions.

Most gallery hung photo's are the same.

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