Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
Supreme Court Rules 5-4 That States Can Collect Sales Tax On Online Purchases
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
Jun 22, 2018 11:43:48   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
Cykdelic wrote:
Note that the decision wasn’t partisan.


I was struck by this too. I was in favor of this decision and afraid I was taking the wrong political side (not that that really bothers me as I do it all the time). But looking at the split I see it wasn't partisan.

I think it's difficult to handle new technology in the marketplace and while I'm not sure that "equal protection" should apply to artificial constructs like companies and corporations but a general level playing field makes sense for everyone. In many ways we let states legally reach out to things that are beyond their borders and claim jurisdiction--these are call "long arm statues" and most states have them for a number of things and use them all the time.

Of course if Congress had put on their adult pants they could have prevented this under interstate commerce and passed legislation that would have fixed this as Congress wanted--but that's asking way too much these days.

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 11:45:58   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
xt2 wrote:
There are significant problems and unintended consequences that will arise from this money grab by those who govern and wish to redistribute wealth. In 1992 the Supreme Court ruled in the Quill case that a merchant is not required to collect sales tax unless the merchant has a tax nexus (physical presence) in that state. A tax nexus would include a retail store, office, or warehouse. Some issues that arise:
• It's difficult to monitor. How does a state track all of the millions of transactions going through the Internet every day and decide which are by companies with a presence in the state?
• The more aggressive the state gets in pursuing this issue, the more likely it is that they will lose businesses. A business in northern California, for instance, could just pick up and move to Oregon, which has no state sales tax. Multiply that one business by thousands and you can see that the state's hoped-for revenue increase might vanish quickly.
• Customers can avoid paying sales taxes by using a forwarding service. For example, a company in Oregon forwards purchases (no state sales tax in Oregon) to help customers avoid high sales taxes on Internet transactions.

This nationwide push in state capitols to slap online sales taxes on out-of-state retailers—a simple tax grab disguised as a matter of high-minded principle. Affected businesses are all but guaranteed to sue in federal court. Online retailers, would have to calculate and apply sales taxes across the entire nation—and roughly 10,000 jurisdictions have such taxes. Apparently that’s a small price to pay for the state lawmakers who hope to benefit from the resulting revenue windfall.

Complying with this convoluted system would necessarily raise costs for consumers and stifle competition. While software exists to help ease this burden, the trade association True Simplification of Taxation estimates it will cost businesses between $80,000 and $290,000 to implement, with further annual maintenance costs of between $57,500 and $260,000. That’s a pittance for major online retailers, but a fortune for smaller companies and startups. Some companies—especially smaller firms—may even stop selling in states where the burdens are worst.

Let's call out this coordinated campaign for what it truly is: a thinly veiled attempt by politicians to dig even deeper into their constituents’ pockets.
There are significant problems and unintended cons... (show quote)
j

Except this is not politicians--it's a non partisan decision by the Supreme Court. It's also perfectly legal and bindingd for the Supreme Court to change its earlier precedents although they do not do it much.

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 12:37:06   #
blue-ultra Loc: New Hampshire
 
I see someone mentioned Ebay, While there are companies and corporation advertising products for sale, many of the items are from people like you and I just trying to move unwanted or items no longer needed. These are and should be non-taxable as they are personal items purchased with dollars that have already been taxed. Then there is Craig's list and even here on UHH we offer our used items to others for sums of $$. It will not be long, if this stands, before they find a way to tax personal sales. I can see it now, you are having a yards sale and a lady offer you 50 cents for an item and you will have to calculate some sort of tax for big brother. Of course this is an imaginary trade but I think you get the picture. I will not have to worry about it for now as I live in New Hampshire and we do not have a sales or income tax, plus I am old...

Reply
 
 
Jun 22, 2018 12:51:09   #
drklrd Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
 
blue-ultra wrote:
I live in New Hampshire. We do not have a state Income tax or a State sales tax. Our legislature is forced to have a balanced budget and they do. Enough with the government taking our hard earned dollars so they can spend it and tell us how kind and wonderful they are.

I am not say we don't pay taxes, we do! But sales and income taxes a double dipping...

Remember we fought a revolution over this nonsense, and won!

"Live Free or Die"


I do agree live free or die. We are dying slowly at our politicians hands. The politicians at the top get all the benefits while us folk at the middle or the bottom pay their way. They get their votes from people who do not truly understand one simple fact. That the more prizes you get from your government the higher your taxes become. The charities who used to take care of our poor and indigent now find it more politically correct to worry about the poor in other countries and the poor immigrants forcing their way into our country illegally. We all pay for it in the long run because we are law abiding tax payers.

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 13:11:47   #
f8lee Loc: New Mexico
 
xt2 wrote:
There are significant problems and unintended consequences that will arise from this money grab by those who govern and wish to redistribute wealth. In 1992 the Supreme Court ruled in the Quill case that a merchant is not required to collect sales tax unless the merchant has a tax nexus (physical presence) in that state. A tax nexus would include a retail store, office, or warehouse. Some issues that arise:
• It's difficult to monitor. How does a state track all of the millions of transactions going through the Internet every day and decide which are by companies with a presence in the state?
• The more aggressive the state gets in pursuing this issue, the more likely it is that they will lose businesses. A business in northern California, for instance, could just pick up and move to Oregon, which has no state sales tax. Multiply that one business by thousands and you can see that the state's hoped-for revenue increase might vanish quickly.
• Customers can avoid paying sales taxes by using a forwarding service. For example, a company in Oregon forwards purchases (no state sales tax in Oregon) to help customers avoid high sales taxes on Internet transactions.

This nationwide push in state capitols to slap online sales taxes on out-of-state retailers—a simple tax grab disguised as a matter of high-minded principle. Affected businesses are all but guaranteed to sue in federal court. Online retailers, would have to calculate and apply sales taxes across the entire nation—and roughly 10,000 jurisdictions have such taxes. Apparently that’s a small price to pay for the state lawmakers who hope to benefit from the resulting revenue windfall.

Complying with this convoluted system would necessarily raise costs for consumers and stifle competition. While software exists to help ease this burden, the trade association True Simplification of Taxation estimates it will cost businesses between $80,000 and $290,000 to implement, with further annual maintenance costs of between $57,500 and $260,000. That’s a pittance for major online retailers, but a fortune for smaller companies and startups. Some companies—especially smaller firms—may even stop selling in states where the burdens are worst.

Let's call out this coordinated campaign for what it truly is: a thinly veiled attempt by politicians to dig even deeper into their constituents’ pockets.
There are significant problems and unintended cons... (show quote)


Again, the "no tax on internet purchases" thing was specifically made to help those companies. As we see retailers dropping like flies, it's obvious that the "poor little baby internet fledgeling businesses" no longer need that separate rule.

Amazon has been charging sales tax to many customers for a while now - in fact, the state of California demanded they do just that and an agreement was struck a few years back.

As for dealing with the complexities of all the thousands of (ridiculous) local jurisdictions - there are towns where one side of Main Street has one tax and the other side differs despite being in the same zip code - there has grown a bevy of companies whose sole business is providing commercial customers with those tax tables, like Vertex (https://www.vertexinc.com/) - so it can be done. And as for the monitoring thereof, when an accountant audits the books these thing will be found. Of course, anyone can cheat - talk to the investors who lost hundreds of millions in Theranos - but then that's a legal situation, isn't it?

I'm no fan of taxation (we've got way too much gub'mint already - that needs to be cut back!) either, but this does level the playing field to some extent.

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 13:34:28   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
f8lee wrote:
Again, the "no tax on internet purchases" thing was specifically made to help those companies. As we see retailers dropping like flies, it's obvious that the "poor little baby internet fledgeling businesses" no longer need that separate rule.

Amazon has been charging sales tax to many customers for a while now - in fact, the state of California demanded they do just that and an agreement was struck a few years back.

As for dealing with the complexities of all the thousands of (ridiculous) local jurisdictions - there are towns where one side of Main Street has one tax and the other side differs despite being in the same zip code - there has grown a bevy of companies whose sole business is providing commercial customers with those tax tables, like Vertex (https://www.vertexinc.com/) - so it can be done. And as for the monitoring thereof, when an accountant audits the books these thing will be found. Of course, anyone can cheat - talk to the investors who lost hundreds of millions in Theranos - but then that's a legal situation, isn't it?

I'm no fan of taxation (we've got way too much gub'mint already - that needs to be cut back!) either, but this does level the playing field to some extent.
Again, the "no tax on internet purchases"... (show quote)


It was never "no tax on internet purchases". It's just that the online merchants didn't have to collect the tax. But buyers were supposed to report the purchases and pay the tax to the state. But that was very hard to enforce unless there was an audit, and probably some people didn't even realize they were supposed to do that.

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 16:02:28   #
Tinkwmobile
 
I am in favor of the change so that everyone follows the law. Previously it was consumers responsibility to remit use tax to states for out of state purchases. You will find that this was always done with the purchase of automobiles, because you could not get a state plate for your auto without going through the process, including paying sales tax. (We live in an area where car dealers in four states are readily accessible and cross advertise regularly.)
Up until the pressure that was put on Amazon, you and I subsidized Amazon's growth and damaged our local retailers. I always buy local, if I can find it. I am a touchy/feely person. I want to see and touch what I buy. I know folks who purchase cars over the internet and have them shipped, sight unseen. Not sure that's my thing.

Reply
 
 
Jun 22, 2018 16:05:18   #
mas24 Loc: Southern CA
 
I buy most of my photography equipment from B&H Photo, where I can generally get free shipping, based on the amount I spend, and no Sales Tax. Stores in California charge you Sales Tax, usually from 8-10%, depending on your County. So, a camera costing you $1000 will actually cost you about $1100, including tax. There is a section in the California State Income Tax Form, where you are to report your purchases from buying online. Unless you kept track of every purchase made, you could accurately figure your Tax. Many reported it and many did not. Once, this Supreme Court Decision is fully enacted, online sellers will have you to choose what State you are from, to determine how much State Tax should be paid. Most likely, if you are from a State with no State Sales Tax. Well, you are lucky. California loves all kinds of additional Taxes. It comes with living here.

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 16:56:37   #
Shel Loc: Lecanto FL
 
If you think that Federal and State employees are overpaid, then I suggest you apply for a government job. In my field, Federal employees salaries are typically about 30-40% BELOW comparable non-government jobs, even when taking into account health care benefits, retirement, vacation time, etc. My wife just retired from a government job. She took the job because at her age, industry jobs were closed to her. I left my government job and got a 30% pay increase. My personal information corresponds to studies that have been conducted based on similarity of jobs.

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 17:53:41   #
PH CIB
 
sb wrote:
Yes, we are all knowledgeable about salaries and benefits. I am willing to work for the sometimes cumbersome bureaucracy known as the Veteran's Health Administration in a setting that could actually put my life in danger only because they offer a salary that is ALMOST competitive with that I could get in the private sector.


God Bless You for Serving our Veterans !!! As a retired State Veterans Rep..I have referred hundreds if not thousands of Veterans to the VA for Health Care and VA Benefits and for years have had care at the VA myself,,,,after working 29 years in State Govt...and seeing some jobs privatized it has in every case cost the Taxpayers more,,,we had the cleaning of the rest stops along the Interstate privatized,,,at first did not do a quality job,,,then did a quality job but still did not pay their workers with the same pay and benefits as State Employees and it turned out it was costing 1.5 Million more a year than it did with DOT employees !!! Of course the Taxpayers who are clueless thought it was great because all these State Employees were out of their good paying jobs with good benefits,,,while those same Taxpayers did not know it was costing them 1.5 Million more in Taxes than with State Employees...this is just one example of privatization costing more and providing less services and paying their help,,,usually your neighbors,,,peanuts....all Government to me is ran by Greed and Big Business Interests with hard working employees but terrible self serving management....over 29 years I put in 50 to 70 Thousand in Overtime which I did on my own,,,no one asked me to do it,,,and I did not expect anything and did not get any wages or benefits for it,,,,all I got was in trouble with both the Union and Management,,,neither of which I had any respect for....

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 18:50:23   #
pendennis
 
blue-ultra wrote:
I see someone mentioned Ebay, While there are companies and corporation advertising products for sale, many of the items are from people like you and I just trying to move unwanted or items no longer needed. These are and should be non-taxable as they are personal items purchased with dollars that have already been taxed. Then there is Craig's list and even here on UHH we offer our used items to others for sums of $$. It will not be long, if this stands, before they find a way to tax personal sales. I can see it now, you are having a yards sale and a lady offer you 50 cents for an item and you will have to calculate some sort of tax for big brother. Of course this is an imaginary trade but I think you get the picture. I will not have to worry about it for now as I live in New Hampshire and we do not have a sales or income tax, plus I am old...
I see someone mentioned Ebay, While there are comp... (show quote)


eBay is not a seller. They're an agent who facilitates the transactions between buyers and sellers. I'm sure we have an attorney, or two, hanging around; and I believe that basic contracts require two parties and the agent never takes title to the goods.

There's also the basis of the sales or use tax. The buyer is the responsible party for remitting the sales/use tax to the appropriate taxing jurisdiction. The laws on payment in brick and mortar stores make them liable for remitting sales tax based on taxable sales. For on-line sales, the buyer is usually responsible for remitting any use tax amounts to the appropriate taxing jurisdiction.

I would guess that eBay has already been reviewing with their attorneys.

As far as Craig's List and garage sales, even the most rabid taxing jurisdictions probably see the futility in driving around neighborhoods on Thursday-Saturday to try and catch grandma and her doily sale. Craig's list is also an agent, facilitating the interface between buyer and seller.

Reply
 
 
Jun 22, 2018 20:00:42   #
rfmaude41 Loc: Lancaster, Texas (DFW area)
 
What happens with "offshore" sales LOL

Reply
Jun 22, 2018 23:21:01   #
pendennis
 
rfmaude41 wrote:
What happens with "offshore" sales LOL


Assuming that there isn't complete levity in your question - Goods imported still have sales/use tax due to the state where the goods are used. At this point, no foreign country could be forced to collect and remit sales/use taxes for a state. Neither can states enter into agreements with foreign countries without the approval of Congress. The user is still compelled to pay use tax to his/her state of usage.

If the goods were shipped to a foreign shore, say The Bahamas, you'd only have to pay what taxes and/or duties The Bahamas requires.

All this is covered in Article I, Section 10.

Reply
Jun 23, 2018 00:55:35   #
ecar Loc: Oregon, USA
 
mas24 wrote:
The Supreme Court Ruled 5-4 today that States that have Sales Tax, can force you to pay Sales Tax on online purchases. Some States already have this requirement. Colorado is one. Actually, you should already be paying this, when you file you State Income Tax. Sometimes guessing. States had been complaining that online purchases were robbing them of billions of dollars in tax revenues. Now, the Supreme Court has taken action in behalf of the States. More information: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/21/supreme-court-allows-sales-taxes-online-purchases/699556002/
The Supreme Court Ruled 5-4 today that States that... (show quote)


I saw this one coming. Tax hungry states will go to great lengths to get that tax dollar, and then misspend it anyway so they can ask for more.

I don't smoke, but there was a big stink a while back about residents buying out of state Cigs, without paying state tax. And in Oregon, they went after everyone who purchased out of state cigs, & make them pay, without a supreme court order.

Reply
Jun 23, 2018 01:41:16   #
erickter Loc: Dallas,TX
 
xt2 wrote:
There are significant problems and unintended consequences that will arise from this money grab by those who govern and wish to redistribute wealth. In 1992 the Supreme Court ruled in the Quill case that a merchant is not required to collect sales tax unless the merchant has a tax nexus (physical presence) in that state. A tax nexus would include a retail store, office, or warehouse. Some issues that arise:
• It's difficult to monitor. How does a state track all of the millions of transactions going through the Internet every day and decide which are by companies with a presence in the state?
• The more aggressive the state gets in pursuing this issue, the more likely it is that they will lose businesses. A business in northern California, for instance, could just pick up and move to Oregon, which has no state sales tax. Multiply that one business by thousands and you can see that the state's hoped-for revenue increase might vanish quickly.
• Customers can avoid paying sales taxes by using a forwarding service. For example, a company in Oregon forwards purchases (no state sales tax in Oregon) to help customers avoid high sales taxes on Internet transactions.

This nationwide push in state capitols to slap online sales taxes on out-of-state retailers—a simple tax grab disguised as a matter of high-minded principle. Affected businesses are all but guaranteed to sue in federal court. Online retailers, would have to calculate and apply sales taxes across the entire nation—and roughly 10,000 jurisdictions have such taxes. Apparently that’s a small price to pay for the state lawmakers who hope to benefit from the resulting revenue windfall.

Complying with this convoluted system would necessarily raise costs for consumers and stifle competition. While software exists to help ease this burden, the trade association True Simplification of Taxation estimates it will cost businesses between $80,000 and $290,000 to implement, with further annual maintenance costs of between $57,500 and $260,000. That’s a pittance for major online retailers, but a fortune for smaller companies and startups. Some companies—especially smaller firms—may even stop selling in states where the burdens are worst.

Let's call out this coordinated campaign for what it truly is: a thinly veiled attempt by politicians to dig even deeper into their constituents’ pockets.
There are significant problems and unintended cons... (show quote)


Agree.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.