Clotting: Controlling the System..an evolutionary process? Not a chance.
Dec 1, 2015 14:55:53 #
Racmanaz
Loc: Sunny Tucson!
"Editor's note: Physicians have a special place among the thinkers who have elaborated the argument for intelligent design. Perhaps that's because, more than evolutionary biologists, they are familiar with the challenges of maintaining a functioning complex system, the human body."
"in summary, the clotting factors in the blood remain inactive until blood vessel injury takes place to turn on the coagulation cascade. Meanwhile, the liver and the endothelium combine to produce anti-clotting factors that together work to turn off hemostasis and allow it to stay off when it's not needed. It is this delicate balance of clotting and anti-clotting factors that allows the body to normally be able to stop bleeding when injured, while at the same time allowing blood to flow freely to the tissues. Moreover, the total absence of fibrinogen, or prothrombin, or Tissue Factor, or Factor V, or Factor VII, or Factor VIII, or Factor IX, or Factor X, or Factor XI, or Factor XIII, or antithrombin, or protein C or TFPI would have made it impossible for our earliest ancestors to live long enough to reproduce."
"Michael Behe has described a system where the absence of any one part renders it non-functional as being irreducibly complex. It certainly looks like hemostasis is irreducibly complex, because if any one of the many clotting or anti-clotting factors were absent life would be impossible."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/11/clotting_contro101231.html
"in summary, the clotting factors in the blood remain inactive until blood vessel injury takes place to turn on the coagulation cascade. Meanwhile, the liver and the endothelium combine to produce anti-clotting factors that together work to turn off hemostasis and allow it to stay off when it's not needed. It is this delicate balance of clotting and anti-clotting factors that allows the body to normally be able to stop bleeding when injured, while at the same time allowing blood to flow freely to the tissues. Moreover, the total absence of fibrinogen, or prothrombin, or Tissue Factor, or Factor V, or Factor VII, or Factor VIII, or Factor IX, or Factor X, or Factor XI, or Factor XIII, or antithrombin, or protein C or TFPI would have made it impossible for our earliest ancestors to live long enough to reproduce."
"Michael Behe has described a system where the absence of any one part renders it non-functional as being irreducibly complex. It certainly looks like hemostasis is irreducibly complex, because if any one of the many clotting or anti-clotting factors were absent life would be impossible."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/11/clotting_contro101231.html
Dec 1, 2015 15:28:32 #
Racmanaz wrote:
b "Editor's note: Physicians have a special ... (show quote)
And this is why the higher, or more complex, life systems didn't begin until way after the simplest life forms appeared on earth. It took time, and lots of it, for those simplest systems to develop into more complex organisms.
--Bob
Dec 1, 2015 16:15:08 #
Racmanaz
Loc: Sunny Tucson!
rmalarz wrote:
And this is why the higher, or more complex, life systems didn't begin until way after the simplest life forms appeared on earth. It took time, and lots of it, for those simplest systems to develop into more complex organisms.
--Bob
--Bob
One needs to show evidence that this could happen by the Darwinian process of evolution and not just conjectures. I'm sorry but this cannot happen by small increments of evolutionary process ,this has to happen all at once because it is a irreducible complexity system.
Dec 1, 2015 17:07:18 #
Racmanaz wrote:
One needs to show evidence that this could happen by the Darwinian process of evolution and not just conjectures. I'm sorry but this cannot happen by small increments of evolutionary process ,this has to happen all at once because it is a irreducible complexity system.
Since you were the initiator of the concept, it should fall up on you to provide proof of your premise. At which time we can study that proof and provide premises that are contrary.
--Bob
Dec 1, 2015 17:15:49 #
Rac once again you've hit the nail on the head. It's so complicated that you can't explain how it happened. Thus, the only possible answer is that an invisible man that lives in the sky did it.
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
Dec 1, 2015 17:24:16 #
Racmanaz
Loc: Sunny Tucson!
rmalarz wrote:
Since you were the initiator of the concept, it should fall up on you to provide proof of your premise. At which time we can study that proof and provide premises that are contrary.
--Bob
--Bob
It's very well explained in the link I provided above. You on the other hand object to it so now you are obligated to give evidence of your theory against what is posted.
Dec 1, 2015 17:24:17 #
Racmanaz
Loc: Sunny Tucson!
[quote=rmalarz]Since you were the initiator of the concept, it should fall up on you to provide proof of your premise. At which time we can study that proof and provide premises that are .
.....
.....
Dec 1, 2015 17:25:01 #
Frank T wrote:
are you sure you want to get involved here... this could go 27 pages! :)Rac once again you've hit the nail on the head. It's so complicated that you can't explain how it happened. Thus, the only possible answer is that an invisible man that lives in the sky did it.
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
Dec 1, 2015 17:27:56 #
Racmanaz
Loc: Sunny Tucson!
Frank T wrote:
Rac once again you've hit the nail on the head. It's so complicated that you can't explain how it happened. Thus, the only possible answer is that an invisible man that lives in the sky did it.
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
You're incorrect no god of the gaps theory was implied
Dec 1, 2015 17:30:56 #
Racmanaz
Loc: Sunny Tucson!
green wrote:
are you sure you want to get involved here... this could go 27 pages! :)
Actually I wasn't even planning on responding to comments on here, unfortunately I did lol. I'm going to let this one roll on its own without me responding anymore. Merry Christmas smile
Dec 1, 2015 17:31:11 #
Dec 1, 2015 19:00:09 #
Racmanaz wrote:
You have never demonstrated the ability to "let one roll", and this thread won't be any different.........Actually I wasn't even planning on responding to comments on here, unfortunately I did lol. I'm going to let this one roll on its own without me responding anymore. Merry Christmas smile
Dec 1, 2015 20:18:05 #
I hope my post didn't "abort" this thread before it had really lived!
Dec 2, 2015 10:40:15 #
Let me throw some facts on this fire. Firstly, the clotting mechanism you describe is only found in hominins. Other animals have ony part of the clotting cascade, yet still manage to clot their blood. An example of this is the whale, which is lacking several of the cascade's components, yet doesn't bleed to death. Secondly, manyof the components of the clotting cascade are proteolytic enzymes which are found in some organisms, where they are responsible for cleaving proteins rather than participating in the clotting cascade. So...the likelihood is that over the course of evolution already existing proteolytic enzymes were recruited into a varietyof cascades that produce the thickening of blood we call clotting. Thus, the mechanism demonstrated not irreducible complexity, but reducible simplicity.
Dec 2, 2015 10:53:19 #
silver
Loc: Santa Monica Ca.
Racmanaz wrote:
b "Editor's note: Physicians have a special ... (show quote)
Just more ridiculous rac crap. Rac works so hard at this, at least he is keeping himself off of the streets. http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Philosophy/axioms/axioms/node47.html
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.