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Teaching Creationism not Good for Children
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Sep 5, 2012 23:47:55   #
glennkrewson
 
It might be what you personally feel is science, for instance I do not agree with various theories, but that does not discredit them as sciences. For instance what some has said respecting creationism, I do not agree with, since it is out of harmony with the Bible, but they are still sciences... What you are proposing, the theory of evolution, I do not agree with, but, that does not mean it is not a scientific discipline either.

The definition is as follows : sci·ence&#8194; &#8194;

1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.

4. systematized knowledge in general.

5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.

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Sep 5, 2012 23:59:44   #
CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver
 
I can understand why some people have to believe in creationism - they need a nice comfortable explanation. The thought we are descendants of Homo Erectus, let alone from an ape-like creature (not monkeys) is too hard to accept. I understand that. What I cannot understand anyone who believes a literal Bible. I mean really - Noah's Ark?, Tower of Babel?, and Adam and Eve? Really? Where did CAin find a wife? Fairly tales to explain something to illiterate people. Cute story for a children's book, but absurd to take as a fact.
To me, evolution would indicate a very clever God - he made a system and is sitting back to see how it all works out.

A friend gave me some reading to convince me of why "Creationism" is valid. It was the most intellectually dishonest piece of drivel I have ever read.

One of the authors "facts" was that the proponents of evolution indicated that a very early human ancestor began walking upright - he pointed out that this human ancestor had arms long enough that his hands could touch his knees and then asked, "does that sound like someone who walks upright?"

What a buffoon - what allows us to walk upright is the design of the hip joint, not arm length.

Creation MAY be a fact, but it is demonstrably NOT a science. Ask any creation believer if there is anything that could change his or her mind and the answer is no. Therefore not a science.

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Sep 6, 2012 06:00:44   #
Zero_Equals_Infinity Loc: Canada
 
RTR wrote:
Creationism ain't science. But science is not the ultimate authority either because any scientific theory may one day be proven false. Many have been.


But not the scientific method itself, which is a method and not a theory. Religion does not apply the scientific method, but the a priori ascertain and faith method. Applying the scientific method has led to some excellent theories which continue to improve and change, and to build our understanding of the universe. The proof in the pudding with respect to the validity of the scientific method is sitting in front of you ... (Hint: You are using it right now.)

Try using the religious method instead of the scientific one if you wish, but I would not test it if I were you, and especially in matters of medical treatment, aviation, or anything where you cannot afford the cost of failure.

By making everything fit into its frame, religion makes itself unfalsifiable. (Axiom: The Christian God is the one true God, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Added to which is an axiom about the Bible being the infallibly accurate expression of God which is to be taken as authoritative.) With the scientific method nothing is taken as authoritative, and everything is falsifiable.

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Sep 6, 2012 09:49:13   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
RTR wrote:
Creationism ain't science. But science is not the ultimate authority either because any scientific theory may one day be proven false. Many have been.

Exactly. That's why science progresses. A theory provides an explanation for what we observe. New observations requires the reformulation or recasting of theory. A new theory opens up new areas of inquiry which can be tested...

And so it goes.

Theology has added no new knowledge to the human library in the last thousand years for the simple reason that what theology proposes can not be tested and falsified. There is no theological progress.

As soon as some creationist comes up with a way to test the idea (it's not a theory in a scientific sense), then creationism enters the realm of science. Until then, it's just religion.

No one ever claimed science was an "ultimate authority." It's just the best one we have right now.

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Sep 6, 2012 09:59:59   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
glennkrewson wrote:
It might be what you personally feel is science, for instance I do not agree with various theories, but that does not discredit them as sciences. For instance what some has said respecting creationism, I do not agree with, since it is out of harmony with the Bible, but they are still sciences... What you are proposing, the theory of evolution, I do not agree with, but, that does not mean it is not a scientific discipline either.

The definition is as follows : sci·ence&#8194; &#8194;

1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.

4. systematized knowledge in general.

5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
It might be what you personally feel is science, f... (show quote)


I don't think I've ever claimed creationism isn't a scientific discipline. I've said creationism isn't a scientific theory.

Astrology can be considered a scientific discipline because it meets a couple of your definitions, but it is not a scientific theory.
Evolution, cosmology and creationism are all working from the same observations. Where creationism fails is that it has not opened itself to falsification.

In theology this isn't a problem. If the creationists want to play in the science sandbox, they have to follow the rules laid down by science. Until the creationists come up with a way to test their idea, it ain't science.

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Sep 6, 2012 10:01:47   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
Zero_Equals_Infinity wrote:
RTR wrote:
Creationism ain't science. But science is not the ultimate authority either because any scientific theory may one day be proven false. Many have been.


But not the scientific method itself, which is a method and not a theory. Religion does not apply the scientific method, but the a priori ascertain and faith method. Applying the scientific method has led to some excellent theories which continue to improve and change, and to build our understanding of the universe. The proof in the pudding with respect to the validity of the scientific method is sitting in front of you ... (Hint: You are using it right now.)

Try using the religious method instead of the scientific one if you wish, but I would not test it if I were you, and especially in matters of medical treatment, aviation, or anything where you cannot afford the cost of failure.

By making everything fit into its frame, religion makes itself unfalsifiable. (Axiom: The Christian God is the one true God, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Added to which is an axiom about the Bible being the infallibly accurate expression of God which is to be taken as authoritative.) With the scientific method nothing is taken as authoritative, and everything is falsifiable.
quote=RTR Creationism ain't science. But science ... (show quote)


What he said! Science isn't a thing, it's a process.

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Apr 15, 2013 09:13:16   #
Wahawk Loc: NE IA
 
sinatraman wrote:
How sad and totally wrong! I was raised an atheist by my folks and was denied a relationship with Jesus for 38 years, That was a very costly form of child abuse. I don't think that God's word is true, I don't believe that God's word is true,I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS 100% TRUE.

I have felt the presence of Jesus both inside my soul as well as at church and as well as looking out at the ocean or looking at a magnificent florida sunset. I have seen miracles happen, had both my knees cartilage healed and arthritis in my left knee disappear. I have felt the Holy Ghost and have spoken in an unknown tongue. atheism is evil and leads down the road to Hitler, Stalin, pol pot, idi Armin and Mao. Bill Nye is heading for a very rude awakening when he dies and is face to face with Jesus who tells him " I did not come from an ape" of course by then it will be too late.

Had I been raised to know Jesus and to understand that He has my back, my life would have turned out much differently. I would not have made allot of my mistakes would have finished law school and gone on to be a prosecutor. By denying me a relationship with the Lord, my parents deprived me of a very valuable resource for dealing with the problems of life. If I knew at 18 that Jesus was real and thus Adam and Eve were real, i would have avoided harmful behaviors such as fornication, adultery, drunkenness, drug use, theft, and other sins I am guilty of committing.

Thankfully Jesus never gave up on me, and eventually I heard his call and responded positively. Having a relationship with Jesus and making Him number one in my life has allowed me to escape the prison of materialism, I focus on what's most important A strong relationship with God, which gives me the self confidence, patience and discipline to face boldly whatever life throws at me. In addition, I have no doubts that when the rapture of the church occurs (much sooner then people think) I Will be with my Lord and Saviour in Heaven and not on earth when all hell breaks loose literally.

Trusting in God and his word in the bible also has allowed me to overcome despair, depression and suicidal thoughts. You may choose to think your ancestors were primates, I choose to believe that my ancestor was made of the dust of the earth in God's own image. Man is not an animal, he was created to have dominion over the animals.

I realize that nothing I write will change your mind, so this answer and my testimony are for those who are honestly seeking to know if God exists and what is he like. My heart is troubled and burdened for atheists as I know where they WILL be spending eternity if they don't get right with Jesus. If anyone has serious questions ( not just looking for an argument) send me a pm. would be more then happy to share more of my testimony with anyone. God bless you all and God bless America
How sad and totally wrong! I was raised an athei... (show quote)


:thumbup: :thumbup:

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Apr 15, 2013 09:14:59   #
Wahawk Loc: NE IA
 
ngc1514 wrote:
The evolutionary change of 2 chimp chromosomes into a single human chromosome. The placement of the the telomeres both at the end of the chromosome (as expected), but also in the middle of the joined chromosomes is strong evidence we, and chimps, share a common ancestor.


Just more scientific "theory" that has never been PROVEN!

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Apr 15, 2013 09:58:35   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
donrent wrote:
To teach Bibical Thoughts as factual happenings is absolutly assinine... A scientific proven fact overules ANY belief thought that there is......


Oh boy...I guess you know I would disagree that certain things are "factual happenings" and that any Christian is saying that "all science is bad!"

There are "beliefs" on both sides of aisle...

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Apr 15, 2013 10:01:43   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
ngc1514 wrote:
What he said! Science isn't a thing, it's a process.


Yes...and it's got a scope of what it can...and can't do...

And secondly...no Christian is "against science" i.e. "Observational Science"...nope ...that's a canard that's thrown out in error.

What Christians object to is "Historical Science" i.e. things that cannot be directly observed but have to be interpreted and /or inferred.

And everyone's interpretation of whatever "evidence" is presented is governed by their "presuppositions" i.e. those axioms that they hold as truth that are neither provable nor testable.

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Apr 15, 2013 10:03:16   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
ngc1514 wrote:


In theology this isn't a problem. If the creationists want to play in the science sandbox, they have to follow the rules laid down by science. Until the creationists come up with a way to test their idea, it ain't science.


That's so lame.


All "evidence" is interpreted and men all have their bias'.

There are MANY creationist scientists doing "real science"...

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Apr 15, 2013 10:07:22   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
CaptainC wrote:
I can understand why some people have to believe in creationism - they need a nice comfortable explanation. The thought we are descendants of Homo Erectus, let alone from an ape-like creature (not monkeys) is too hard to accept. I understand that. What I cannot understand anyone who believes a literal Bible. I mean really - Noah's Ark?, Tower of Babel?, and Adam and Eve? Really? Where did CAin find a wife? Fairly tales to explain something to illiterate people. Cute story for a children's book, but absurd to take as a fact.
To me, evolution would indicate a very clever God - he made a system and is sitting back to see how it all works out.

A friend gave me some reading to convince me of why "Creationism" is valid. It was the most intellectually dishonest piece of drivel I have ever read.

One of the authors "facts" was that the proponents of evolution indicated that a very early human ancestor began walking upright - he pointed out that this human ancestor had arms long enough that his hands could touch his knees and then asked, "does that sound like someone who walks upright?"

What a buffoon - what allows us to walk upright is the design of the hip joint, not arm length.

Creation MAY be a fact, but it is demonstrably NOT a science. Ask any creation believer if there is anything that could change his or her mind and the answer is no. Therefore not a science.
I can understand why some people have to believe i... (show quote)


Captn

You may have been show some bogus or weird "evidence" but Christians aren't against "science" at all...observational science that is.

Now...interpretation of present evidence to extrapolate what happened in the past...that's another story entirely.

Sure..there have been a lot of crappy Creationism literature...but there is also a lot of crappy Evolutionist literature too.

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Apr 15, 2013 10:17:14   #
CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver
 
Ask any Creation believer what could change his mind and the answer is "nothing."
Therefore it is not science - it is faith. That is fine, but do not give me the "creation science" crap.

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Apr 15, 2013 10:44:25   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
CaptainC wrote:
Ask any Creation believer what could change his mind and the answer is "nothing."
Therefore it is not science - it is faith. That is fine, but do not give me the "creation science" crap.


Well...to be fair...that sentiment goes to both sides of the aisle, and I'm sure that you fancy yourself open minded and open to anything but every person has their bias' and what they will and will not allow as an answer.

----------------------------------

Professor Richard Lewontin, a geneticist (and self-proclaimed Marxist), is certainly one of the world’s leaders in evolutionary biology.

He wrote this very revealing comment (the italics were in the original). It illustrates the implicit philosophical bias against Genesis creation—regardless of whether or not the facts support it.

[quote]‘We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated.

Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

I applaud him for his honesty.

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Apr 16, 2013 01:16:32   #
Hal81 Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
 
I for one am a Bible beliveing christan. You eather belive in the Bible or not. I chose to belive. You must have faith to belive in God and the bible. I will fight for your right to belive in what ever you want. If you belive when you take your dirt nap its all over so be it. I belive theres life after death. If you dont thats your chose. But I like my belifes better.I have somthing to look forward to. Your outlook must be very gloomey.You dont need science to prove anything when you have faith. The Bible says the fool hath said in his heart there is no God..If you dont belive in the Bible that wont bother you.

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