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Apr 3, 2016 16:33:52   #
CraigFair Loc: Santa Maria, CA.
 
I am looking to get the "Celestron Nightscape 8300 CCD Camera".
Do I really need to get an Off-Axis Guider???
Craig

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Apr 3, 2016 16:41:41   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
CraigFair wrote:
I am looking to get the "Celestron Nightscape 8300 CCD Camera".
Do I really need to get an Off-Axis Guider???
Craig


An Off-Axis Guider gets its light source by adding a prism to the main light path such that it splits off a little bit of the light to use for the Guide camera.

I don't see any reason that a separate Guide Scope and camera can't be used instead.

Are you going to get the mono version or the color version?

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Apr 3, 2016 16:44:46   #
CraigFair Loc: Santa Maria, CA.
 
JimH123 wrote:
An Off-Axis Guider gets its light source by adding a prism to the main light path such that it splits off a little bit of the light to use for the Guide camera.

I don't see any reason that a separate Guide Scope and camera can't be used instead.

Are you going to get the mono version or the color version?

I was thinking of the Color because I can't afford all the expensive filters needed and the wheel too.
I have a really nice setup for my Guide Scope already.

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Apr 3, 2016 16:52:11   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
CraigFair wrote:
I was thinking of the Color because I can't afford all the expensive filters needed and the wheel too.
I have a really nice setup for my Guide Scope already.


I would think your existing guide scope will be sufficient. Looking forward to seeing some sample images.

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Apr 3, 2016 16:57:40   #
CraigFair Loc: Santa Maria, CA.
 
JimH123 wrote:
I would think your existing guide scope will be sufficient. Looking forward to seeing some sample images.

The Kodak 8300 Sensor has a really good rating from what I can read about it.
They use it in much more expensive Camera.

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Apr 3, 2016 18:15:56   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
CraigFair wrote:
The Kodak 8300 Sensor has a really good rating from what I can read about it.
They use it in much more expensive Camera.


Yes, the SBIG 8300 series uses the same sensor. One developing concern is that Kodak is or has discontinued making it. And Sony is phasing out CCD sensors in favor of CMOS with the final discontinuous next year some time.

CMOS sensors are more sensitive and do have lower noise thus less need for as much cooling. But I am not yet seeing them in the serious astroastronomy cameras. But they are certainly a force in the DSLR cameras such as the Sony A7S.

One side note. The Atik Infinity I recently purchased is CMOS and very sensitive. More sensitive than my DSLR cameras in fact. It uses the Sony ICX825 CMOS sensor with a pixel size of 6.45 x 6.45 um and a resolution of 1392 x 1040 pixels and a readout noise of 6e. This unit is not cooled, but the Atik 414EX uses the same sensor and does have cooling reducing its readout noise to 5e.

What I would like to see is for Atik to produce a similar camera with a larger sensor, much like the Celestron Nightscape 8300. I would live to have a larger sensor camera that does the live stacking such as the Infinity does. I think the Infinity has spoiled me a bit. It is sensitive enough that I can aim at anything in the Messier or NGC database, and i see it right away. By comparison, my DSLRs see them also, but only after a lot more exposure time.

The Nightscape is 8.3M pixel (5.4 x 5.4 um) and is a 22.5mm diagonal dimension (17.96 mm x 13.52 mm) on the sensor. This is a real nice size for astrophotography. The Atik Infinity is only 11mm diagonal and 1.45 M pixel. I think you will do well with it.

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Apr 3, 2016 18:37:11   #
CraigFair Loc: Santa Maria, CA.
 
JimH123 wrote:
Yes, the SBIG 8300 series uses the same sensor. One developing concern is that Kodak is or has discontinued making it. And Sony is phasing out CCD sensors in favor of CMOS with the final discontinuous next year some time.

CMOS sensors are more sensitive and do have lower noise thus less need for as much cooling. But I am not yet seeing them in the serious astroastronomy cameras. But they are certainly a force in the DSLR cameras such as the Sony A7S.

One side note. The Atik Infinity I recently purchased is CMOS and very sensitive. More sensitive than my DSLR cameras in fact. It uses the Sony ICX825 CMOS sensor with a pixel size of 6.45 x 6.45 um and a resolution of 1392 x 1040 pixels and a readout noise of 6e. This unit is not cooled, but the Atik 414EX uses the same sensor and does have cooling reducing its readout noise to 5e.

What I would like to see is for Atik to produce a similar camera with a larger sensor, much like the Celestron Nightscape 8300. I would live to have a larger sensor camera that does the live stacking such as the Infinity does. I think the Infinity has spoiled me a bit. It is sensitive enough that I can aim at anything in the Messier or NGC database, and i see it right away. By comparison, my DSLRs see them also, but only after a lot more exposure time.

The Nightscape is 8.3M pixel (5.4 x 5.4 um) and is a 22.5mm diagonal dimension (17.96 mm x 13.52 mm) on the sensor. This is a real nice size for astrophotography. The Atik Infinity is only 11mm diagonal and 1.45 M pixel. I think you will do well with it.
Yes, the SBIG 8300 series uses the same sensor. O... (show quote)

Thank you very much for all the information Jim H.
With the lower price of the Celestron with the Kodak 8300 sensor I went ahead and ordered the Celestron Nightscape 8300 CCD Camera.
It's a done deal. I look forward to some great shots in Color and B&W.
I assume using the binning will produce B&W's???
Craig

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Apr 3, 2016 19:33:45   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
CraigFair wrote:
Thank you very much for all the information Jim H.
With the lower price of the Celestron with the Kodak 8300 sensor I went ahead and ordered the Celestron Nightscape 8300 CCD Camera.
It's a done deal. I look forward to some great shots in Color and B&W.
I assume using the binning will produce B&W's???
Craig


Yes, the binning will produce B&W, but at 1/4 the pixel resolution. You can always just convert to B&W and see what you like best.

Enjoy!

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Apr 3, 2016 19:57:20   #
CraigFair Loc: Santa Maria, CA.
 
JimH123 wrote:
Yes, the binning will produce B&W, but at 1/4 the pixel resolution. You can always just convert to B&W and see what you like best.

Enjoy!

That is a good idea Jim H. I do like some of the DSO's in B&W.
I can't wait to get up and around so I can get back in action.
Craig

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Apr 3, 2016 20:13:21   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
CraigFair wrote:
That is a good idea Jim H. I do like some of the DSO's in B&W.
I can't wait to get up and around so I can get back in action.
Craig


Glad you're on the recovery!

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Apr 3, 2016 20:53:02   #
CraigFair Loc: Santa Maria, CA.
 
JimH123 wrote:
Glad you're on the recovery!

Thanks Jim H. 2 months and I'll be as good as new I hope.
Craig

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Apr 3, 2016 22:48:41   #
SonnyE Loc: Communist California, USA
 
CraigFair wrote:
Thanks Jim H. 2 months and I'll be as good as new I hope.
Craig


I should think better than new.
You've got an iron butt now. Or at least half of one.
Stop laughing, it only hurts when you laugh.
Can't wait to see what you get with the new camera.

Oh and off axis. I don't think you need that headache. Sometimes the prism that picks off the light for guiding also shows in your images.
I'd suggest you stick with your 70 mm and your SSAG.
Does your 9.25 have the means for mounting?

With what I have learned with using PHD as my alignment program, I don't hardly have use for an eyepiece anymore.
I can get on target with my red dot (when need be), then dial in with the image from the guide scope on my computer screen. ;)

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Apr 4, 2016 06:35:43   #
Oknoder Loc: Western North Dakota
 
Most definitely you do not need an off axis guider. With some of the much higher focal lengths you are using the SSAG is nowhere near sensitive enough to pick up a guide star without constantly fiddling with the camera's orientation. Some people are DIY converting their flip mirror accessories to an on axis guider by changing out the mirror assembly, which looks promising.

While you can use the color ccd, in super pixel mode, it limits the resolution along with only a minor increase in sensitivity to the point of making it not really worthwhile. If you want the resolution and sensitivity of the mono version just increase the exposure time to 4-5 times the normal, at least this is what I have found to be close to the same. One great benefit of the 8300 chip is the ease of swapping out the chip, since it is not soldered into its PCB, and the chip can be had for just a hundred or two. There are also well over a dozen separate versions of the kaf-8300 currently in production which range in costs from $100-$800 dollars depending on the bin number or readout quality of the chip.

I think CCD still has a decade or more of life expectancy until CMOS begins to completely phase it out, if it ever does. CMOS is not found in astro cameras too much yet because of the cost to size discrepancy. CMOS is great for video or quick readout but suffers from a smaller sensor size.

The small sensor is great though IMHO because I can use a small refractor with a small chip and get the same FOV as a large SCT with a large sensor, all at a much lower investment overall.

Matthew

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Apr 4, 2016 10:06:23   #
nikonshooter Loc: Spartanburg, South Carolina
 
CraigFair wrote:
I am looking to get the "Celestron Nightscape 8300 CCD Camera".
Do I really need to get an Off-Axis Guider???
Craig


IMHO you do not need to add a OAG.

But, I added the Newt 8 inch OTA which is a pretty heavy piece of kit.....I originally bought a 10 inch but needed a crane to move it so I returned it for the 8 inch :) Orion loves me. I also bought the thin Off-Axis Guider (Orion) to reduce the weight. It also allows you to just the FOV to find a suitable guide star. Together with the coma corrector I am blown away by how bloody well it works. I don't think I had any flexure problems before but if I did...the OAG helps to resolve that. I really do not know if the OAG limits light to my camera but it's present has to have some affect....I just can't discern it.

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Apr 4, 2016 10:32:43   #
JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
 
nikonshooter wrote:
IMHO you do not need to add a OAG.

But, I added the Newt 8 inch OTA which is a pretty heavy piece of kit.....I originally bought a 10 inch but needed a crane to move it so I returned it for the 8 inch :) Orion loves me. I also bought the thin Off-Axis Guider (Orion) to reduce the weight. It also allows you to just the FOV to find a suitable guide star. Together with the coma corrector I am blown away by how bloody well it works. I don't think I had any flexure problems before but if I did...the OAG helps to resolve that. I really do not know if the OAG limits light to my camera but it's present has to have some affect....I just can't discern it.
IMHO you do not need to add a OAG. br br But,... (show quote)


Which coma corrector did you purchase? I had bought the Baader and it works really well. It corrects while maintaining the same original focal length. I've wondered about having one that does do a focal reduction to get some variety in focal length, but it might vignette.

I do enjoy the f3.9 speed of the 8" astrograph.

I also have the 9 1/4" Celestron as my other scope and it is f10. With a 0.63x focal reducer, it becomes f6.3, but is still a focal length more than double the 8" Astrograph's 800mm.

I've got to get going with auto guiding, but considering I haven't retired yet, I don't get a chance that often to experiment with it.

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