country Loc: back woods

thanks everybody for the help, I will try these things....

jenny Loc: in hiding:)

Hi,Nightski,sorry I had to run to town to tie up the loose ends of the week. The beautiful fall season is so short,let's try to make the most of it! My sympathy has always been with the digital newbies who never used a film camera as they don't have a base on which to understand the terms and the principles of exposure. It was the only reason for joining UH 2 yrs. ago when I thought so many members were way too serious about printing.

My original hasty post on this thread was to point out the seemingly small but really important facts about the terms for f-stops, 1. that all the figures are indeed fractions. That is why f2 is SO much larger than f16, "JUST AS" 1/2 is so much larger an 1/16th of anything. We all get a bit careless with this at times but properly written we should write it as f/#,the slash indicating a fraction. Was that information useful and clear to you or the Op or anyone else learning terms used and principles applied in photography? I believe so,you said so and thanked me,I appreciated that but had gone to address the problems of the day.Thank you.

Now,as so often happens on this forum,it seems someone misses the pont being in a big hurry not to read carefully
what was said and why,and even quicker to throw ice water on it.It seems lighthouse wanted to claim I misled you...intentionally or otherwise,or i'm just too dense to be able to explain something in a simple way understandable to a digital-only newbie. Then someone else chimes in to prove that he too, is smarter than anyone else,so let's throw in some more ice water. Did all this help to clarify anything to go out and capture those beautiful fall landscapes or details TODAY? Or shall we sit down and argue until the leaves are gone and every newbie knows
enough about light,physics and optics to MAKE a lens or at least go to work for Leica??

I think Nightski,that you already know that each f-stop allows twice as much light,or blocks half as much,depending on whether you set it for a larger or smaller aperture. I think you have noticed that at f/2.8 you would have a very SHALLOW depth of field,and that at f/16 it would be DEEP enough so that all of your landscape looked to be in good focus. That will help anyone TODAY.
So I like your response to the later comments about the possibility of,"way more information than the Op is ready for right now." Agreed. Knowing the principles is enough for foliage season 2013.

The list of figures given twice in the later comments so laboriously typed, illustrate that each figure is one f-stop larger or smaller than the next one. Now do you know what a logarithm is....if not,and it wouldn't make your day,then
there's no need to know. If you ever get more curious about light and lenses and have burning questions about some of the math involved with lenses okay. It IS a good idea to memorize the progression of f-stops. You have already noticed every other number is doubled and those intervals are 2 f-stops apart. The others fit in there between them halfway, or sometimes not exactly halfway,
but near enough to help you remember the whole list. Now,will that help you today? If not,think about it,it WILL help tomorrow, or during the foliage season!!!!

Forget these analogies about the pupils of your eyes,it's not eyes, pies,or anything else,it'a LENS. You don't have to be clobbered with math and physics to take beautiful pictures!!! Too much of that can be confusing and frustrating enough to impede one's progress when not firmly grounded in the basic principles!!!
We can explore another day why your lens is rated "f/2"
(if indeed it is or not) as opposed to referring to that figure as an f-stop,okay? (And just tell these guys you weren't looking for a "snow job")
:D :D :D

mdorn Loc: Portland, OR

LOL. Actually Jenny... I understood your post perfectly. I had to read it twice since I'm an old man, but I eventually got it. Then lighthouse chimed in to clarify things whether he needed to or not.

My question to you is have we interrupted the delicate balance between simple vs. complex? I don't claim to be smarter by listing a few f/stop numbers that are readily available in any beginning photography book, but it doesn't hurt to post several different explanations. We all learn differently, and maybe, just maybe, someone will say something that helps folks understand a little more clearly.

It's clear to me (since you felt the need to post twice) that you don't like certain analogies (or any perhaps)... in fact, the pupil in your eye analogy helped me understand this concept when I first heard it 30+ years ago. Fortunately or unfortunately, you don't get to decide which analogies are good and which are bad for other people. So if you feel threatened by my words in some way, I'm sorry. I'll have to work on not following your rushed posts with a few more details and irrelevant analogies. Now get out there and photograph those wonderful city lights at night. :-)

jenny Loc: in hiding:)

Happy weekend morning to you,Mdorn,Nightski and all....aarg,yes,yesterday was a bit chaotic, as life has a way of intruding on our photography passion and we should never make appointments we can't afford to break.

Yes, I do think it necessary to break down the barriers to learning where they exist for digital-only newbies,and that we can explain the beauty of apertures f/stops without getting too technical about it in the beginning. I just happen to think the subject is beautiful in its basic simplicity and we shouldn't scare away people who have no history of being interested in math or technology.

Allow me to sum up the points I was trying to make so no one goes off the rails in another direction and hopefully we shall have done well to help clear the fog for a few:
* It is true that f-stops are all fractions...and as a matter of fact then, f/2 is 1/2 .and f/16 is also 1/16. This does, I hope,give a good mental picture of large/small and why "2 is larger than 16" without complications.

*It is true that each f-stop next to it delivers either half as much light or twice as much,and THAT we all need to know.
However,it is just slightly a bit different from what I was trying to point out,which was that....
those f-stop apertures are determined by the SIZE OF THE AREA OF A CIRCLE OF LIGHT ALLOWED TO REACH THE SENSOR. If we stop explaining just about there, I would hope it might give a clear picture of just what aperture is and maybe why it is. For some people,that will always be enough, for the more curious I think there is beauty to be explored in drawing a few circles and playing with the very
familiar equation A= Pi x r squared.

*Last of all, I think we should point out to the beginner that ISO is a straight pattern that indicates light sensitivity,and it does that only. Shutter speed,or the time a shutteris open to allow light to reach the sensor,also does its one thing only. Aperture however, that opening you described as similar to a human pupil, has TWO characteristics. As it is set to a small opening,e.g. f/16,
everything infront of the lens will be reasonably in focus.
If set to a large aperture,the depth of field will be SHALLOW...(let's use the proper term there,I have been seeing "narrow" used by newbies sometimes).

Admittedly there are deeper explanations and refinements to everything I have said, but I would like to help those still struggling with the basics to understand what they need TODAY,without a math or physics course.It will actually be ALL that some people need or even want. I hope I have not failed to provide that. As for the double post,I tried to delete one and failed,haha to me
:oops:

mdorn Loc: Portland, OR

Fair enough. However, if you missed it, my point was that we should leave the assumptions regarding how much technical speak a beginner can absorb alone. Let those who are reading decide if it's helpful or not. If someone wants to provide a "deeper explanation", let it be and accept that there might be some newbies out there that are quite good with math. I learned photography when I was in college earning my electrical engineering degree. Calculating the area of a circle with (Pi * r2) was very familiar to me. In combination with the pupil example, the light went on in my head about aperture.

I'll also point out (warning, this gets a little technical) that although you have simplified your explanation to fractions, it's important to note that in your example '1' represents the focal length, not the number 1. I realize you are trying to simplify things for those who are not comfortable with math, but then why use a mathematical expression at all? I suspect if you want to understand the technical side of photography, understanding a little math goes a long way. Of course, I realize that you don't need any math to take compelling photographs. :-)

jenny Loc: in hiding:)

Agreed with all you said,but I read some statistic quite recently,and sorry I don't have a reference for it,but it was quite shocking in the figures claiming that something near half the American population (?) never took any high school math at all! Indeed many can add but run into difficulty with simple subtraction. If true, such information is hard to accept.
Yet this is an actual experience: A neighbor approached me asking what the tax would be on a purchase of $3. @ 8.5%.
I told her it would be 26cents and then had to explain why.
(Can you believe,she considered me a "math genius"!!!) Incidents such as that tend to lend credence to statistics you read,or even what you see on UH sometimes. Sad,huh?

jenny Loc: in hiding:)

[quote=lighthouse]Yes, F/2 is half the light of F/1.4. But that is only a coincidental thing in this case.
* * *
How amusing,after a 2nd reading,and acknowledging that jenny was right when using f/2 as an example of half of something,(that being f/1.4), neither of the following responses do a thing to unscramble the mess they made in confusing Nightski to have her wind up saying it didn't make sense after all !! In fact lighthouse goes on to claim it was "a coincidental thing" ,when in fact a fact IS a fact!!!

Do you agree Nightski,that until you got to trying to describe a total method of finding an exposure for the Op that this thread with its plea to,"Please help me understand" had limped along for 4 pages?

Our second interference from mdorn was no more helpful on page 2, suggesting to shoot on a different time of day,or that author Peterson spells his first name with a Y in it. Or to go on in page 3 suggesting there is "no shame" (!) in using aper. or shutter priority!! Of course there isn't,indeed many seasoned excellent photographers do so,using in fact all possible modes for various situations!

Nor was it any better last night in suggesting I sent a double post intentionally, or this morning,condescendingly suggesting his college math class was better than mine and
I was still somehow inept in explaining what he couldn't or wouldn't,while he initially misunderstood what I had posted. I find these attitudes at best obstructionist,and generally worse in confusing people who are trying to learn and looking for helpful input.

A failure to even read what the Op had said...(using auto ISO and knowing no other way,having no idea what meter mode was used, and pleading for help) ,should I would think in most places alert the reader to wanting to help instead of pouring ice water on those who take pity on someone who is struggling to understand the basics.

I consider those who are not inclined to offer concrete help but insist on posting their own illusions of their superiority to be worse than those who do not post at all. Thank you Nightski for the opportunity to try to work with you on this as I know how you have struggled at times too and that it led you to try to help someone else.

lighthouse Loc: No Fixed Abode

My, my ,my.
Isn't it amazing that the more jenny types, the more she sounds like dpullum?
I am starting to think they are one and the same person.
They both seem to suffer from the same verbal diarrhoea.
Posts that only seek to attempt to complicate matters and just scream "Look at me, look how smart I am because I can write complete paragraphs that talk in riddles, and make no sense whatsoever!"

Of course it is a coincidence jenny about F/2 being half of something and I explained perfectly and simply why it was. Believe or not jenny - everything is half of something else. Trying to muddy the waters and complicate matters doesn't change that at all.
You implied that F/22 stood for 1/22nd and it obviously doesn't.

And no amount of muddying and floundering will make it so.
And giving an example of being able to work out a percentage doesn't make you a mathematical genius.

jenny, you are obviously struggling here, you are floundering around trying to justify your position, and inserting insults thinly veiled as compliments.
I also don't have much respect for people who insist on posting their own illusions of their superiority. This applies to you perfectly.

Lost Loc: Oakdale,Ca

Last year I asked a simlar question and recieved many helpful answers. It was not until I learned that the camera does meter the light and I could choose which way it did that I was able to make use of the help I was given. I found a step by step instruction on how to change metering mode and what they might be used for

Bram boy Loc: Vancouver Island B.C. Canada

your right"

Bram boy Loc: Vancouver Island B.C. Canada

on the blow out

Bram boy Loc: Vancouver Island B.C. Canada

its sharper because the pic you have left is less blown out.look at the detail in the first, the shadows on the wall the shadows in the dirt wall to the right, you look at them and you will see what she means .

Bram boy Loc: Vancouver Island B.C. Canada

but the first worst one is better than the second worst one for being right.

Bram boy Loc: Vancouver Island B.C. Canada

dont hog it all' we all think that way, (not) just kidding"

Bram boy Loc: Vancouver Island B.C. Canada

i dont think that will change your speed.in fact im pretty sure it wont light is light . maybe if your quit a few min, between each shot . like if it gets darker , cloudy , sunny , then it will change if on auto